And what wise sages we we're proven to be.:) Tell you what, (when in ATL all ATC calls must start with those three words by the way) if you'll admit that we (those of us that said so on APC, not all Delta Pilots) were right on the LOA and you were wrong in your fears, then I'll admit the grumblings on the TA are borne out of latent jealousy of the percentage pay bump your getting as opposed to us. (somewhat contradictory I know) Not to beat a dead horse but this all would have been a lot easier and more profitable in Feb. when NWALPA stepped on our collective cranks.:D Sorry couldn't resist.

Deez

Carl, The 757 pays the same as the 767 at Delta. The 767 is almost twice the weight. In the end it really does not matter. Both NWALPA and Dalpa have seen the future business plan. It does not include 747's long term. They are going to be replaced with 777's. You want to spend your negotiating capital where it does the most good. Note the 787 payrate. It is slotted above bigger aircraft but is a aircraft they will play big in the combined company future fleet plan.
As far as Delta pilots not liking the TA yet we voted for LOA19 the answer is simple. LOA 19 was a stop gap. We were told it was temporary until we produced a joint working agreement. The big gains were to come in the joint agreement. Well the joint agreement is here and there are no gains. We are giving up are right to strike for a better agreement for at least 6 years. Delta has over 2000 pilots over age 50. Many of us need to recover retirement loses. We don't have time to waste 6 years. Our current agreement is amendable in 18 months. It includes pay raises that could exceed the joint contract raises. The retirement improvements are phased in which is not acceptable in light of what was given up in that section at Delta. I will vote no and hope that the majority does also and get ready to exchange openers on the new contract next year when we will have a legal right to strike at some point.

Right on target.
I don't have a real problem with NWA pilots getting the big gains from this TA. My issue is with the amendable date. This locks us in for a very long time. If this merger works as advertised and the "New Delta" suddenly becomes wildly profitable, we're going to regret signing such a long duration agreement.

Are you serious?? Do you really think you are going to have better footing next year on your own while we drag things out because you didnt know when to take what you can and run? If we dont get this done then we will burn through unnecessary cash that we as a company need all out of your Greed. Do you envy the position Usair is in now, because thats what your idea puts us through?

Again why all of a sudden did you lose faith in the direction your MEC points you? They UNANIMOUSLY think this is the best direction for us to go given our current position yet you disagree? I am all for fighting for what we can get but sometimes you need to know when to take what you can when while you can and live to fight another day. At a $140 a barrel and going up now is the time to grab the candy and RUN!!

YGTBSM...

Where do you think amendable dates come from? Both the NWA and Delta MEC negotiating committees agreed on the duration. Why? It's going to take money and time for the combination of these two carriers to generate the profits that we need for true restoration. Suddenly becoming wildly profitable isn't going to happen. This is the airline business. If by some miracle it does, you're protected with a very good and pensionable profit sharing plan. But this company will need to generate truckloads of money to recapitalize the fleet that it currently has, and last time I checked both airlines lost a lot more than they've made this decade. You're looking at over 20% increased compensation plus profit sharing and equity during this contract. No, it's not C2K, but it's a heckuva lot better than any other recently bankrupt passenger airline.

Uh, George, what's the duration of LOA 19?

Hint, there's no way, even with a no vote, that you'll get a legal right to strike next year. Or in 2010. 2011, or 2012.

And with oil at $140, and your company losing money, I'm sure striking is the way to get what you want. Back to bankruptcy!:eek:

Sheez:rolleyes:

I am glad somebody else gets it!! I cant believe some people think this is something to shrug off because they can "GET MORE". The industry is in the Shatter and thousands are being laid off but they think they have room to negotiate more!!:cool: The way this industry is right now we will be lucky to have a company at all if it keeps getting worse. The New DAL needs us to get this done so it can dig in and start to try and generate the efficiencies so they MIGHT be able to produce profits. IF we can push through this we can set up for a great contract when the negotiating environment gets better. I hope people wake up and cooler heads prevail. I am pretty sure its the minority of people here who think they are positioned to get more if the vote this down or they will strike next year:rolleyes:. Time to take it and run and hope we actually can weather the storm like so many others haven't or wont be able to.:eek:

LOA 19 only takes effect if the merger is completed at DCC. If this agreement is voted down I believe there is a good chance management will rethink the merger. It appears managements comittment to the merger is already waning a bit just from hearing them talk. If it looks like a AWA/USAIR situation is developing then I think it will be over. I don't think the combined airlines can afford the cost required to complete the merger. Cash is king at the moment. Delta's dramatic shift from domestic to international flying has paid off in spades. They expect to post a operating profit this quarter with no cash burn.
I would agree that long term the merger makes sense and would produce a stronger airline. Short term however I think the merger endangers the survival of both airlines. The 1 billion dollar figure to merge is low and does not include aircraft replacement costs. I listened carefully at one of the lounge shows. The DC-9's are going away as fast as they can retire them and acquire 76 seaters to replace them. No 747's will be on the property in 5 years. Management is betting on the cash to fund the merger and new aircraft hoping oil will drop back to 90 a barrel. Thats a huge gamble on your future.

I do admit that Deez. You guys and Lee Moak were right and my fears were wrong. I'm still curious as to what lit the fire under management. It took over 30 days just to agree on location and format of negotiations - which looked to me like the stalling tactic I feared. Then, all of a sudden, DAL management requested "round the clock" negotiations until a TA is reached. What happened? Did you have something to do with this Deez??? :D

Yes, NWALPA agreeing back in FEB would have been more profitable, but the price was agreeing to a ratio that figured in all of Delta's future aircraft options, and that was not worth the price. I think there is 100% unanimity of opinion at NWA that NWALPA did exactly the right thing. It would have been way worse than just selling our seniority, it would have left over a thousand NWA guys at the bottom of the new list. I would have never backed such a proposal to hurt our new guys like that.

Carl

LETS VOTE THIS TA DOWN. WE NEED A BETTER TA WITH AN IMPROVEMENT TO OUR INCOME. WE CAN COME UP WITH SOMETHING BETTER FOR EVERYONE AND SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THIS IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. :)

LOA19 WAS JUST A STOP GAP TILL WE GET SOMETHING BETTER.
;)

NO IMPROVEMENTS HERE:(

NEXT PROPOSAL PLEASE.

Business plans are just that...plans. The 747-400 will stay on the property of the new airline without any doubt in my opinion. On my last trip alone every seat was full (403 pax) on every leg. 50,000 lbs + of belly freight on every leg. Pax paying up to 7,000 + for a ticket and we left dozens behind due to overbooking. Nearly every takeoff was right at 870,000 lbs. And we're doing that TODAY with 140 dollar oil as a single entity. The new combined entity will have even greater power of pricing and pax demand. There is no way a 777 can do what the -400 can do on the popular ultra long haul routes. Regardless of what anyone's "business plan" says today.

My understanding was that even the gains of LOA 19 that were initially just for DAL pilots was based on the merger closing. Without the merger with NWA, even those gains would have gone away. The price of LOA 19 was the victory achieved by this TA being created and ultimately ratified. And yes I said Victory. I don't get what is so hard to understand about that - there is no LOA 19 without a ratified TA. Unless you were hoping for a merger closing but stalling on combining the pilot contracts and the SLI. If that was anyone's hope, they probably should have listened a little closer to Richard Anderson.

From what some other Delta guys are posting, they're most mad that NWA guys are getting a bigger percentage of the gain. If this new TA had gotten pay above LOA 19, some of the (usual suspects) here would still be complaining about the fact NWA pilots got a bigger percentage.

While I sympathize with old farts like us, here is reality as I see it. We already have no right to strike. The right to strike has been removed unilateraly from the Railway Labor Act by the Federal Court System. Nobody likes to talk about it, but that's what happened in my opinion. When our Bankruptcy judge agreed to terminate the contract with our flight attendants, the FA's said they would strike since they no longer had a contract. The company sued in numerous Federal venues claiming a strike would really hurt them. The Federal judges (most are frequent fliers) agreed and said the flight attendants could not strike.

Other methods work better. You guys were able to make USAir back off from that hostile takeover attempt, and you did it without a strike or even a strike threat. In this day of the unpublicized death of strike rights, fighting your battles from within is the more effective approach.

Carl

If you're not going to post the source of this statement, shouldn't you at least preface it with "in my opinion?" Sheeeeez.

Carl

You Delta folks already did this when you achieved that $330+ per hour figure back in the day. Your negotiating prowess cannot be questioned. But what happend? Why did it go away? It did so becaue it represented too large a gap in the pilot labor marketplace, and that is the REAL issue as I see it. Until we figure out a way for our brother pilots to not work for ridiculous wages (skybus, valuejet and every regional) and even more ridiculous contractual terms (JetBlue) we will always have trouble KEEPING these wage increases. Whether you're a military guy with a 20 year retirement in place and just need to get away from the wife for a while every week, or a new kid hoping to get on with a major someday, we have to educate these folks that accepting these jobs is RUINING our profession.

We should do the best we can to stay at the top of industry pay rates, but ALPA's real goal needs to be strategizing on how to stop the "I'll fly for free just to get this cool job" mentality.

Rant complete. Sorry.

Carl

I don't think that's it at all Carl. This is just MY speculation, but by paying the queens of each fleet essentially the same thing, I think the negotiators were attempting to minimize the whining when the two groups truly cross pollinate. Why would you want to go to school on yet another aircraft in your career for essentially the same pay -unless you want to change bases- ? It will really be interesting to watch since I have seen a lot of NWA guys say they aren't interested in moving to ATL or SLC.. or wherever.. and vice versa. Once true integration has been achieved, the truth in those statements will come out.

I wish you would have been a NWALPA negotiator back when we could have REALLY grabbed some candy.

I agree with Carl, The low payrates on the B747 which carry 400+ folks would hurt us in the future!!:)

What about coming up with a better system for scheduling pilots like Emirates. 5 rotating groups everyone does a month of reserve.

Max retirement age for everybody in the Airlines should be 65 years.:D

SUPERPILOT92 = SUPERLOYALNWA;)

You are 100% correct Carl.. unfortunately, we will never be able to change this kind of mindset. Fact Is... it IS still a "cool job". I guess the thing is too, that since nobody really has any retirement anymore.. and if McClown gets elected, we won't have any company paid health plan.. it will be just a job. The career aspect of this will be a thing of the past. So years from now, when little Johnny gets tired of flying his video game airbus, he'll go back to walmart where he will probably make just as much money, and enjoy some sort of health care and/or retirement.

MY rant's over now too...

A properly focused ALPA national could and should do more to stop this by outreach and education. If we all don't take this more seriously, then your thesis is probably our future. I would much rather see them spend our dues on this type of activity as opposed to endorsing Obama or anyone else Democrat. Notice I didn't use another spelling of Obama's name - the way you did with McCain's? But I was tempted!!

Carl

My bet is that if Superpilot was a negotiator, he would have decided to walk away from that SLI offer too. Hey Superpilot, am I right??

Carl

We may have a JCBA for approval, but this deal is far from done. Lazarowich broke faith during your roadshows. The deal in February was supposed to be confidential and non-precedential, only shown when all 4 components were complete.

Instead, your MEC Admiinistration went on the road talking two-faced. They told us that the economic TA was never presented to your MEC, yet told your pilots that was the TA achieved. Lazarowich's committee then put out incomplete and BS seniority list proposals, ignoring the ones that he had proferred disadvantageous to Delta pilots.

Now we get to go back and "negotiate" with a man who has proven he's worse than management, and a committee with no honor. Hopefully some smarter minds on your MEC will prevail and you'll send real negotiators like you did in March, not failed arbitrators like you elected.

By the way, how did the Redbook-Greenbook arbitration last Monday turn out? It's only been, what, 21 years?:rolleyes:

Christ, here we go again.

I completely forgot that the Delta MEC is angelic and has never done anything self promoting.
For the sake of those Delta Pilots who want to move on put a lid on it will ya?

Carl, Most of what I posted is public news. There were around 100 DC-9's on 1 Jan 08. There will be only 61 on 1 Jan 09 according to NWA's published fleet plan. There were 160 nines not to long ago. The 747's leaving in the next 5 years has been put out at several times. You might want to take a look at the specs on a 777LR. It can carry more cargo then the 400 on the long flights. It does not carry as many people but those it carries are at a much lower fuel burn. The overall flight will be more profitable. Old aircraft get retired and replaced. Delta has delivery slots for 777's to replace all the 400's and grow internationally. I would love to see the 400's stay. It can only help me and it keeps all those Captains from bidding down on top of me. Sadly I don't think that it is going to happen. Delta has also always maintained that they need at least 30 aircraft of a specific type to operate them without a huge cost penalty a small fleet entails. We came very close to parking the 777's a few years back for that reason.

There's no "we" here. You're not involved. Go play with your new "Star Alliance" friends. We'll deal with our new marriage without your help stirring the pot.:cool:

In response to selcall,s post ,seniority did not help out worth a damn at PA ,and as my fellow travelers at DAL will tell you ,we were acquired not merged.
I was always under the impression that the comp . who initiates said merger schould take the brunt of whatever reductions transpire ie equip cuts etc .It would cut down on these so called EGO mergers .But you guys want this merger anyway so go ahead and knock yourselfs out and I hope it works out in the long run ,but this timing is off with the current economy cycle.



Nearly all men can stand adversity but if you want to test a mans character give him power.

OK, you're getting a LITTLE bit better with you saying that you "think" it won't happen. In your previous posts you state unequivocally that the DC-9's and 747's are going. Keep trying to get better with that whole accuracy thing, eh!

Carl

Interesting since now he is all gung ho to get an SLI NOW that NWA will receive all the benefits derived from LOA 19. Now that DALPA's hands are virtually tied to arbitration, and NWALPA are getting all the benefits of LOA 19 I am pretty sure you are right, that he would have walked. So DAL pilots will only get a 5% pay increase instead of 7%... Question for you now... what incentive does NWALPA have to negotiate an SLI?

What an utterly pathetic post. Are you a lifetime member of the Flat Earth Society or just a charter member?

Your post notwithstanding, I'm pleased to see that people of your temperament are a minority here. This deal is probably going to happen now. And it will happen in spite of people like you who stir the pot with accusations that are completely made up in your "head."

Carl

There is no LOA 19 without this merger closing. Do you understand that? So with that in mind, how is it that only NWA pilots get the benefits of LOA 19?

You mean DAL is not capable of agreeing to an SLI outside of arbitration? Wow...I wonder why that would be?

No need to repeat myself here.

The incentive is simple, and only one word: RISK. Anyone who has been through arbitration knows that it is one hell of a big crap shoot. Absolutely anything can happen. Could go straight Date of Hire, could go straight mathematical ratio. Nobody knows. That's our incentive, and I'll bet it's DALPA's incentive too. You guys haven't had an arbitrated decision since Northeast Airlines. We have, and there are NEVER any winners.

Carl

That's not what I said. I said that NWA now receives the benefits of LOA 19, (I should have added: just as DAL pilots do).



[/quote]You mean DAL is not capable of agreeing to an SLI outside of arbitration? Wow...I wonder why that would be?[/quote]

No... I don't think NWA is capable of doing that. It is in your genes.



[/quote]The incentive is simple, and only one word: RISK. Anyone who has been through arbitration knows that it is one hell of a big crap shoot. Absolutely anything can happen. Could go straight Date of Hire, could go straight mathematical ratio. Nobody knows. That's our incentive, and I'll bet it's DALPA's incentive too. You guys haven't had an arbitrated decision since Northeast Airlines. We have, and there are NEVER any winners.[/quote]

This is confusing to me. You guys opened with a desire to go straight to arbitration. Now you tell me that it isn't desirable. So what has changed? I'll tell you... you will soon have our contract. So now you have nothing to lose. Not much of a crap shoot for you really. That's what we have been saying since February, but that apparently fell on deaf ears (as far as your negotiators were concerned) So I'll ask you again... what is your incentive? I believe you have only one at this point.

I would not bet on it !!:)

You mean DAL is not capable of agreeing to an SLI outside of arbitration? Wow...I wonder why that would be?[/quote]

No... I don't think NWA is capable of doing that. It is in your genes.



[/quote]The incentive is simple, and only one word: RISK. Anyone who has been through arbitration knows that it is one hell of a big crap shoot. Absolutely anything can happen. Could go straight Date of Hire, could go straight mathematical ratio. Nobody knows. That's our incentive, and I'll bet it's DALPA's incentive too. You guys haven't had an arbitrated decision since Northeast Airlines. We have, and there are NEVER any winners.[/quote]

This is confusing to me. You guys opened with a desire to go straight to arbitration. Now you tell me that it isn't desirable. So what has changed? I'll tell you... you will soon have our contract. So now you have nothing to lose. Not much of a crap shoot for you really. That's what we have been saying since February, but that apparently fell on deaf ears (as far as your negotiators were concerned) So I'll ask you again... what is your incentive? I believe you have only one at this point.[/QUOTE]

You are 100%

We are too nice at Delta. I am all for shooting this deal down. I am sure without the merger we will get something better than LOA19 in a few years.:)

Anything to me is better than a merger. Just do not have any trust in anything good ever coming out of this merger but animosity for each other that would last a career

Hoping the DOJ or Pilots somehow end this freakshow:(

I am hoping that this merger will be a go as I feel it will benefit ALL of us. That ebing said I personally feel like I will loose out on the SLI. I have been at NWA over 13 years so a ratio is not in my favor. But even with a ratio (which I feel is what is going to happen) I think this merger is positive. The joint agreement does benefit my paycheck after DCC but that can go away as fast as it came. senority is forever but my hope and opinion is that the benefits of the combined entity will outweigh any potential loss in senority.

How do you do that multiple quote thing?

OK, that clarification helps a little bit.

What a nice thing to say. I can just feel the warmth right through my computer screen.

The reason your so confused is because you believe in an utterly discredited premise. NWALPA did not open with a desire to go to arbitration, we ended with that desire when the last DALPA proposal apparently was a ratio that included all of DAL's future aircraft options and none of NWA's future aircraft options. I say "apparently" because this is what I've heard from my reps - nobody has seen the actual document. NWALPA felt that left them in a position of desiring arbitration as a way of completing a JPWA while kicking the can down the road regarding an SLI. NWALPA felt that we couldn't possibly do any worse in arbitration. It was DALPA that said no, ended the negotiations, and signed LOA 19. That's what happened. All of this is in writing from the particular groups involved.

There's nothing inconsistent about NWALPA's position (and mine) on arbitration. It's a terrible crap shoot, unless the other side demands an SLI that is most likely worse than any arbitrator has ever decided.

Your arrogance is overwhelming. It's not YOUR contract ace, it's OUR contract. And it's only OUR contract if the merger actually happens. Would you please get over yourself.

DALPA's last SLI position did not fall on deaf ears. Fortunately for NWA pilots, their ears and eyes were wide open. There is 100% agreement at NWA that we should not have signed off on that proposal. As I've said earlier, now that the old DALPA position of a highly skewed ratio is apparently off the table, there is tremendous incentive for NWALPA to negotiate an SLI outside of arbitration. Why? Because an arbitrator might agree with a highly skewed ratio that takes all of Delta's future aircraft options and none of NWA's future options - because an arbitrator can do whatever the hell he wants.

That's plenty of incentive for me!

Carl

I've edited my earlier response because I know it will fall on deaf Delta ears. I see all kinds of DAL's posting on other threads and I'll do the same.

Cheers

It's HTML language (I think). You use the: [/quote] at the end of what you want quoted. At the beginning of what you want quoted you have to paste in the beginning of the message - which in your case was this:
[quote=tsquare;414209]

Carl

OK.. sorry, that didn't come across the way I meant. But my concern still remains that NWALPA is hell bent on arbitration. And if that is true... I'm very concerned.

Oh one more question: What is this "early reitrement and permanent part time flying" that C 20 passed?

Wait, I thought you said your MEC was so much better than ours...you mean they let you down with LOA 19 b.c. now u feel ur getting screwed...Well if u feel your being left out or not getting what u deserve, I guess you have no one to thank but your MEC and Neg.'s.

From what we were being told, our two sides could not come to an agreement, and WE said we would go to arbitration to take that sweet deal (back in FEB), DALPA said NO, then got LOA 19, then said you would go to arib. Now we got a Joint TA, and we are going to try and NEG a SLI, but part of the TA, AGREED by BOTH sides is if we could not get an SLI we would go to arbitration. I think most NWA pilots would rather we get a SLI through neg, not arbitration...but I am not sure you can understand this!