This is interesting. You and superpilot sound almost desperate in your posts to the spliff. I'm not supporting what he says one way or the other, but it is interesting to me that as much grief as DAL was given for LOA 19, now that some are questioning the TA, you are trashing them for that. Not saying you are right wrong or indifferent. I am still digesting the TA myself. From what I have seen so far, it is extremely weak. And I'm not talking about pay here either. There are a lot of QOL items that seem to be blown off that might have been better addressed. I don't know the ramifications of turning down this deal yet and the effect it will have on the SLI process. I THINK they are not joined at the hip, but I will find out. After all, WE are going to live with this POS for probably another 8 years... So you better read it very carefully, and make sure you can live with it that long... because we all know how quick to negotiate management will be when/IF the company starts making lots of $ again...

I guess if by attempting to be logical in my discussions you consider that "desperate" then sure. I try to be level headed with all of my discussions and Spliff is even getting called out by fellow DAL guys so point fingers all you want at him but i TRY to not be biased to either side and want whats best for ALL of us. Call it being optimistic if you want but i have way to much time left with this company to get bent out of shape towards either side, especially since we are about to be on the SAME side.;)

Grief was given because LOA 19 excluded NWA pilots, which would not achieve the synergies required to make the merger successful. It's very interesting to me that LOA 19 was acceptable, until it included NWA pilots. It seems that someone doesn't think it's fair that we are all on one payscale.

Rest assured that the SLI and the TA are joined at the hip, and YOU WILL NOT see an SLI without seeing a single contract FIRST. Neither MEC wants a repeat of the debacle that is the UsAir/America West merger. While some DAL pilots may think thats good, it would be more disasterous than the two companies standing alone. And the two companies will NOT be standing alone, we will be merged. If we allow the companies to merge without having the contract and SLI taken care of, then any of us that have been with either company for less than 10 years can start looking for a new job. Let me reiterate that you WILL NOT see an SLI without first having a single contract agreed upon.

Anytime bud. You'd be surprised how many computer skills are necessary to trap gophers. :D

Carl

Don't believe that Gunga Galunga crap....he tried to stiff me ya know!

Carl

No, I got called out by a guy making his first post claiming to be a DAL pilot.

You should do what's best for you, SP92. The best thing for you might not be the best for somebody else. No need to fault others for doing what's best for them.


You have a tendency to label those who disagree with you (like me) "negative." I'm not being negative. I'm doing what I think is best, same as you.

Thanks for the great post Flare. I'm sorry to hear about your 3 years. I was furloughed 5 times in my first 4 years with my first airline. I still remember it like it was yesterday. I think there's a chance we can pull this deal off without furloughs. That would be incredible.

Carl

Amazing how much more positive you are now, Carl. Why is that?

Thanks for that post. I ride DAL's jumpseat now and then, and I get DAL guys on my jumpseat to Asia. Everyone to a man has been a great guy and very professional. I just had to believe that was the majority at DAL.

Don't know if the merger is going to be a good idea in the long run, but I'll be proud to get to know more of you DAL guys.

Carl

That's easy. After LOA 19, DALPA had an incredible hammer. My previous posts outlining what could happen to NWA guys is probably what you recall as negative. DALPA could have made this very ugly - they didn't. Lee Moak said he wanted a joint agreement ASAP - he meant it.

I've always said we needed to wait and see what the actions of DALPA were versus listening to their words after LOA 19. I've seen their actions now, and I think they're stand up guys.

I guess getting a glimpse of what my future union is made of makes me feel more positive. Strange how that same glimpse makes you feel more negative.

Carl

You are a fake:) If you are really a Delta pilot where is the ladies restroom in the crew lounge at Terminal 3 JFK?;)

Do not get sucked in by the dark side;)

Thank you for this true statement. :D

I am going to enjoy this vote!! It will show the will of the Delta Pilot

Wha? Bar. Is that really you? :)

I get the feeling that there is no crew lounge in terminal 3 at JFK? :rolleyes:

There is a crew lounge in terminal 3. We even get to use it some times when the roof is not caving in!!!

That doesn't sound good!!! Then I guess there is no ladies bathroom.... :rolleyes:

Good post! It is weird how "Some" of the DALPA followers stood behind their MEC all the way through the LOA 19 vote and suddenly when NWALPA and its pilots are being treated like equals by DALPA, some DAL guys turn their backs on THEIR and soon to be OUR union leadership :cool:. To me that shows a lack of character and honor.:confused: They were the ones saying you NWA guys better get on board the trains leaving and DALPA is doing whats best for everyone you will see. And they were right we did see and that helped calm the room with some NWA guys who were skeptical. This will pass and hopefully the angry minority dont become the long term bitter guys nobody wants to fly with.

Just like Carl said at points through this whole mess i was skeptical on DALPAs position and i am happy to say i shouldn't have been. Good on them and good on the NWA MEC for working together on ALL of our behalves.

You guys are too smart for your own good! Looks like Northwest hires for brains.;)

Having a different opinion has nothing to do with honor or character. The fact I am not happy Nalpa is trying to get one over on us as a pilot group has nothing to do with character or honor. Even if my feeling is wrong I have a right to it.

Character and honor! Big words young man so watch your words.;)

I have the right to disagree with you 100% and I have the right to vote NO or YES to a TA for whatever reason I feel is valid.

What makes you feel I voted for LOA19. It was not a 100% vote in support. Many guys did not vote to support it on principles which have zero to do with your pay raise and quality of life improvement and all that special rubbish you think we are getting as a result of the merger. The lifestyle of a US major Airline pilot is still way below world standards. Relax and let the struggle for better work conditions go through its normal process.

Fight and represent your veiws 100% and I love it. But leave honor or character out of it. If you attack my character or honor I am going to come right back at you and this site and thread will degenerate to trash talk in a heartbeat.

Even if this TA passes the worse thing that can happen is for it to pass 100% in favor. That just tells management we could have given them much less and it would still have passed.

Cheers and I understand your passion and desire to be part of this new merged Delta. I do not share that excitement. I am already a Delta pilot and I am already on my choice equipment in my choice Airline. The merger brings no noticeable improvement to my life personally. It just increases my job security risk. (IMHO)

Some people are so excited about their pay raises they are trying to brainwash or push their veiws with all sorts of statements. I am not buying.

The majority of Delta pilots do not even visit this site. So relax what will happen will happen and we will all learn to live with it. Maybe I would be proved wrong and this merger will turn out okey. But let me assure you if the merger fails even if I lose my job the next day I will still open a cold bottle of wine to celebrate. I sincerely feel we are better as a stand alone airline and this merger has being forced on us.

Hoping for the best and expecting the worse:)

This is a democracy! When the smoke clears we should shake hands and move on! Happiness is not the responsibility of your employer or fellow workers to provide. Most pilots have good mental health and will do fine no matter how this merger pans out in the long run:)

Gee, I was hired by DL in Jan 01 and I can't answer that question. If YOU are a DL pilot, how many computers were in the DEX crew room in MCO?


(It's a rhetorical question, but you get the idea of how dumb your question is.)

My comments where towards those who stood behind DALPA and their decisions and now suddenly when DALPA comes through with what they have been saying SOME people turn their backs on their reps. Why did you feel your reps were acting on your behalf before and NOW they arent? Answer that question for me if you dont mind.

Superpilot, let me ask you this...have you agreed with the stance your MEC has taken through this whole process? I.e., opposition, truculence, obstructionism, and complaining, followed by unanimous approval of the TA? :confused:

In other words, why did you feel like your reps were not acting on your behalf before, and NOW they are?

You see, just because one agrees with his MEC one day, doesn't obligate him to continue doing so, and vice-versa.

[QUOTE=Justdoinmyjob;416978]Gee, I was hired by DL in Jan 01 and I can't answer that question. If YOU are a DL pilot, how many computers were in the DEX crew room in MCO?

That was the Idea Just saying something funny to get everyone to laugh a little bit:D

People change their position! And there are no permanent interest. That is politics. I heard the word posturing used a lot in the past.
The space man says it all. No big deal it will work out one way or another. The last thing we want is a 100% vote in favor. This TA is not that great!:)

You voted yes for LOA 19 did you not? Whats changed now that the NWA pilots where included? Afterall that is what DALPA said they wanted this whole time and my hat is off to them for coming through on their words. I have seen your sides emails and they strongly suggest your side votes yes. Our MECs have a wealth of information and are basing their decisions on the FACTS. Both sides UNANAMOUSLY ratified this because they know we as a pilot group and a company need this to get done.

What IS great is we have BOTH unions working together to make us 1 solid pilot group so we can avoid a USAIR mess and a career full of animosity. Could the TA be better? Maybe, but ask your friends at UAL or any of the countless airlines that have gone TU this year, what they think about it. Or ask some USAIR or America West pilots what they think about us working together. We have a real opportunity here to do something different which is ultimately a step in the right direction for this crazy airline industry. If we can pull this off we will have no reason not to get an industry leading contract once our negotiating ability is better.

I am typically a no vote on the first round but sometimes you just have to know when to take it and run. IF you look around the industry right now, the fact we are getting anything is a plus. Right now we just dont have enough negotiating power. Getting this done and making a strong pilot group and airline for all of us is worth far more than a couple extra bucks an hour IMHO. Now is the time to join up and start building up the warchest for the next round. ;)

Vote how you see fit but at least get informed and go to the roadshows before you make your judgements. A few of you NO guys were screaming NO the day the announcement came out that both sides ratified this. That was before we even had much information and well before any roadshows so to say its a NO already just shows you are making uneducated decisions or your doing it because you never wanted NWA pilots to be treated as equals. Which is it?

Dude, your argument here is absolutely ridiculous. Talk about a red herring. You posts have picked up a marked sense of desperation. The logic you're using here is quite sloppy. :(

It's much more complicated than those two options, I'm afraid. But by all means, continue to disparage those who are educating themselves on the issues, and whose decision about what's best for themselves differs from what's best for you.

For me, this TA is simply not good enough to be married to for the next four plus years. No browbeating, guilt-tripping, or cajoling on your part is going to change my mind.

Would you allow your position to be changed by a very gung-ho poster--whose circumstances are vastly different than your own--on an anonymous forum? Me neither.

My point was you and a few others were screaming No votes as soon as it was ratified by both sides, why? That was before ANY of us had seen the details, talked to our reps, or had an opportunity to go to a roadshow. That's why i said it was an uneducated position. Thats like you going to vote for a president without having a clue who was running :cool:.

I have no desperation bossman, my argument and attitude throughout this whole thing hasnt changed. Can you say the same? The only time i was skeptical was after you guys signed LOA 19 but I am happy to say I have been "educated" and it was proven that i shouldnt have been. :)

The argument is that LOA 19 is our either way. What do we have to gain by voting for this before knowing where we sit on the SLI, what is the rush. The pace is really what is scarring the DAL group. I see the argument and know that it has merit, my rhetorical question is why not vote for it?
Read everything and make an informed decision. I do hate the fact that it is four years long. If we are to swallow four years there should at least be a COLA+ attached to the end of it.

Hey ACL

have you heard about the hiring rumor for the fall being canceled. How about the AE for Aug.

I saw it from a friend of mine on another board, but I have been flying and have not been able to confirm or deny it. Fact is that I am sure that there will be a lot coming out in ensuing weeks.

If you read the TFA and the JPWA there are some issues with having an open AE for all prior for bid period five for the NWA folks. I guess they could bid for the 777 positions but not fill them until a later date. I have more on that, but read it first. All of it. Every document.

As for the AE. I have not heard of it being moved. But this is a very fluid environment and it would not surprise me if it moved to a date that would allow all to bid for it.

There are things that may be in play here, that we will see in the coming months. I will have to let them play out. They are only my thoughts. Just start connecting dots and somethings might make sense.

ACL,

I want C2K plus COLA. Why are you selling us so short?:rolleyes:

You could ask the AAI guys what their negative 11% COLA request from management is like. Or the Midwest guys losing 33% of their flying and 50% of their pay. Or Aloha, ATA, Champion, MaxJet, EOS, SkyBus, Gemini....has Frontier taken paycuts yet?

Of course we could point to the paragon of Union virtue, APA, and see what their bargaining strategy for "just a COLA" has brought them. In fact, as I look around I don't see anybody else getting the level of restoration that this TA provides. I see UAL with 950 fewer pilots (understating the 1400 notices that went out) and ALPA trying to mitigate, AMR with 300 on top of the 2000 already out, CAL trying to mitigate, AirTran with 180, LCC with 300. It's an UGLY picture

I know you generally support this merger. Demanding more in this economic environment won't work. The negotiators got substantial improvements (Over 20% for DAL, 30% for NWA) and took all there was to get.

But when economic times turn around, don't be asking for no COLA. Demand restoration. If this new company turns highly profitable in 2-3 years, they'll have enough cash to afford it. If it doesn't, we'll get to visit what every other airline is going through...again.

I thought we still had profit sharing,i.e. if the company does really well in a couple of years then through profit sharing so will we.
Listen to the pros and cons then vote how you feel.My personal opinion is this is ok for the envoirnment we're in.I would hate to be remembered like AA was when they voted down their rreally nice payrates right before 9-11.Then we would surpass them as the "Biggest Losers'.

FINIS
Fact is that I am for this agreement. I am a yes vote. Like I have said. If every pilot here read all of the supporting documents, the TFA all of the MOA's etc, they would realize that no matter what happens this deal is a good one for the gander. Granted there are risks involved in every deal. More so at the bottom of the list. The SLI will come to pass whether we vote yes or no on the JPWA. The TFA et al show that the course is set for a fair fight for both sides. Voting no only will not give the NWA guys their share,(which I am sure they will get either way), and possibly send us the way of US Air. No one wants that.
Overall it is a good document and there are some marginal improvements that will make this a better place to work. Like I have said. Look down the road, not front of you.

great post and very accurate

FWIW, there is a possibility that DAL may not hire this fall. They may revise it. If they would do that, it shows commitment to all of the NWA folks to keep them on property v/s sending them to Compass and hiring new guys to fill seats that should be theirs in a SLI.
If we do in fact do that in cancel the AE, it is to make sure that with a displacement, there are less training events, and a mitigation of any furloughs. Once again if it is true, this is signs of the old Delta.

I don't disagree with anything you say above except one. Anderson has said that LOA 19 gave him all the tools he needed to capture the synergies in the merger. MY problem with this TA is that is it extremely weak. For example. YOUR... NWA's commuting policy is gone. THAT sucks in my book. They will TRY to get us internet in our layover hotels... TRY... didn't say WILL.. it sez try. The QOL "improvements" here are non existant. NWA guys win big time in the pay department, and I have no problem with that because we have better pay to start with. So that's a non issue. But personally I see nothing in this abortion that makes me want to rush right out and vote yes at this moment other than the three panel arbitrator thingy.. and I still haven't wrapped my head around the ramifications of voting no would have on that. All in all, this thing may well stink worse than the coming November election...and I wouldn't believe that possible

I think RA realized the inaccuracy of that statement. He very well knows that LOA 19 will only give him the synergies he needs for the merger to be successful IF the NWA pilots are included. If we are operating on two seperate contracts, LOA 19 won't help at all. Neither will the unrestricted cash that is being brought to the table.

I agree that there are weak points in the TA, I too saw the laungauge of "try to get internet". I think they canned our commuting policy because the staffing levels at DAL are much higher, making it a little less critical for the new DAL pilots to get to work. The differences in sick pay also make it harder for someone to just blow off a miscommute.(cough, cough) Then again, it may be it was just something we just had to give up to gain something else. I think I can understand how this TA can be a little hard for DAL guys to swallow, mainly because NWA guys have such a pay hike. Unfortunately, thats just the way it will work because NWA guys are working off a BK contract handed to us by a BK judge. We just can't have equal pay hikes.

All in all, I too see some problems with QOL issues in this TA, but given the current state of the industry I find it very hard to believe that we could get much better. This TA is negotiated, they give somewhere, we give somewhere. I just can't see us having any more leverage to get anymore...right now. I still wish the best for us all.