Like the way you think. Now if we can get the other 11,800 on board....

Waiting to see section 1.

Well that's not going to happen know with our LOA so good luck with that thought process. It cracks me up how you guys suddenly oppose your MECs opinion and just a couple weeks ago you were behind them 100%. This will pass on both sides because the majority of pilots are well educated and can see past their noses. A quick look around the industry would easily show this shouldn't be a No vote to anyone with any common sense.

Then why are you job searching? :confused: ;)

FANTASTIC POST!!!

Jesus you guys kill me. "phantom" pilots.
You mean the guys on LOA? MLOA? We should just kick them to the curb?
Yeah..and your old guys are retiring too..yeah..hold your breath and wait for that to happen.

Put the Swords down the argument are pointless because that was then and this is now. The SLI will hopefully be done by our guys and avoid the arbitration. Thats what both sides want.

No, they were positions you guys wanted for 777 options. Since they were put higher in the "stove pipe" it forced alot of jr NWA guys to the bottom of the pile and really threw the appx 7 to 5 ratio out of whack.

I agree with Superpilot. HISTORY.........lets look forward. Hey did I just repeat the LOA 19 argument:D

Ferd

So what? The 747-400 has far more capacity than the 777 yet the pay is the same. Under your logic, the -400 should pay more. But again, who cares. What are you going to claim next - that you object to the font used for the TA? It's uncomfortable watching how badly you have to contort yourself to come up with a reason to hide the fact that you don't like NWA pilots achieving parity. C'mon, confession is good for the soul.

As has already been pointed out by me and others, we still won't have the staffing formula used by DAL. Even if the side letter items are implemented, we're still leaner than DAL. So again, why don't you just tell us the truth.

OK, now I see it. Back in February, you really meant to say this: "Hey NWA guys, better get on board this train before it runs you over! But heaven forbid any TA doesn't pay all aircraft based on capacity. And heaven forbid you even consider fattening your staffing formula so that NWA pilots might avoid furlough. Because if you do any of these things, I'll scream bloody murder and I won't want you on my train anymore."

I think that's exactly what you wanted. Your posts say that in spades. But you're entitled to your extreme view. I'm glad that most DAL pilots don't share that view. If this merger happens, I think the vast majority of us will get along pretty well.

Carl

I'm fine with the 7-5 ratio as well, even though Delta brings substantially more widebody flying and has both current and historical career earnings value. You could even start the ratio from the date the merger was announced. I'm not fine with the addition of Delta growth or NWA retirements or "career expectations." Just as I can't retire off a Delta MD-11 or L-1011, there should be no expectation by a junior NWA pilot to retire off the DC-10 (already gone), 742 or 744. You can't cherry pick assumptions. If we do go with that dynamic list thingy for NWA to capture the retirements, then the slotting should be done in the future when we have a single operating certificate and more accurate fleet and pilot snapshots can be taken to define who brought what to the party.

It is incumbent upon the two MEC's to pull off a negotiated list. Arbitration will diminish the potential value this merger can put in all of our wallets.

deleted...

An obvious point, but it bears mentioning. The merger discussions on this board are taking place between half a dozen Delta guys and a like number of Northwest guys. You can't infer that the posters here are representative of either group, any more than the posters on the ALPA boards are.

All this discussion is great; just don't take it too seriously. We're all going to be working together soon.

I completely agree and i typically try and make it a point that i say "some" Dal guys. i dont like to generalize because i know a few hotheads on hear represent a small minority of people. Most people in this industry are well educated and are extremely rational. It just amazed me that some people think they will have better negotiating power in the future if they vote "NO" to this now.

Just to clarify i dont mean to generalize the group and I look forward to working together soon also. :D

I agree with everything you said above, but. Lord knows I haven't had any career expectations since 9/11. But ref above, I'm not sure how the logistics of that would work. The single certificate may take 6 months to a year after DCC. In the mean time the new company will be making all sorts of fleet plans that will have nothing to do with "us" anymore. Or, did I miss your point, I do that alot :D.

Shack!!

Ferd

PS Carl, thanks for the tip on multiple quotes. You geek youze

You got it right. Slowplay was in a dreamy world where he has his cake and eats it too.

[QUOTE=Superpilot92;416025

Just to clarify i don't mean to generalize the group and I look forward to working together soon also. :D[/QUOTE]

I didn't intend to single you out; sorry if you took it that way. I just don't want this discussion to color anyone's perception of the other group. For every poster here, there are probably a hundred people reading it.

We'll have enough challenges after the merger without having to concern ourselves with a divided pilot group.

FWIW, I've spoken to a number of NWA and Delta guys (including MEC guys from both airlines), and I get the sense that our expectations for SLI are not too different.

From what I've heard they were very close earlier this year.

I agree again, and i have heard the same in regards to the SLI. I hope we get this done asap so we can move forward together as 1 Large unified pilot group.

Until there is SOC, a Delta pilot can't fly a NWA aircraft and a NWA pilot can't fly a Delta aircraft. Delta is bringing on at least 16 aircraft in the next 9 months and will be hiring this fall. That hiring will continue after we merge. There will be more than the current 7400 pilots on Delta's list, and most likely fewer NWA pilots than the current 5300 due to retirements. If you want to capture the "slots" vacated by retirements, I want to capture the relative position provided by Delta's growth prior to our integration by doing the math at SOC. That works in reverse, too. Should Delta park MD-88's and require fewer pilots, I should move backwards, not you. If NWA parks the 742 fleet, NWA pilots should move backward as you lose that "premium" flying.

All I'm saying is we should integrate with what we brought to the dance, and neither side should cherry pick assumptions.

And I appreciate the civil tone you're taking, Ferd. Is a nice change from the cereal fruit flake that comments here.

ROTFLMAO:D That's the funniest thing I have seen on this forum yet.

Gunga... gunga la gunga

Oh look, hes crying...

Carl,

This post will probably be lost in all the flames, but I am pretty pleased with the TA....once again, we get some improvements in a horrible economic environment while delivering on the promised parity. Many people predicted a DECREASE in the Letter 19 raises because of the recent changes in the economic environment...didn't happen.

I enjoyed reading about some of the NWA stuff...gives some insight into how complicated this merger is behind the scenes and I think our negotiators did a good job.

Also happy to see the flowback stuff extended to the entire pilot group.

Not sure how guys can be ****ed about a contract that gives them additional furlough protection (I was out for 3 years so I'm not some sheltered senior guy), 18% raises, increases in retirement, etc. etc.

Meanwhile I have family and friends getting furloughed in a matter of months and are worried about larger problems in their lives.

Keep whining "instant no voters". And for the guy who is so ticked at DAL and DALPA with 400 hours, I suggest you quit. Obviously this airline is not a good match for you and you'd be happier and better off somewhere else.

And to the NWA guys....I'm glad to see the parity happened. Maybe this will get some guys to get away from their unnecessary suspicions of our pilot group.

Here's to better days,

Hope it wasn't over any spilt milk....

Your welcome on the tone.....I've never been much of a trash talker. Even back in my HS basketball days, when I tried it guys just laughed at me. Maybe trying to talk and gasping for air? :D

I agree with what your saying, but the only thing I would add is that on the NWA side we haven't talked about growth or even staying the same since the merger started picking up steam late in '07. Prior to that, we discussed "if" cargo was going grow (not go away) and would we replace the -200s with the or A-330F or wait for the 747-800F and Boeing was pushing 777Fs. The company was looking for a -9 replacement, they wanted to wait for new technology like the new Canadiar or maybe forced to go after the biger E-195 for something quick.

Now, nothing but merger. So, would we have stayed the same size as a stand alone? Probably not in this environment but I would argue you wouldn't have either.

So, I would argue it looks worse for us than you shrinkage wise (think George Castanza) but I think alot of that is a function of the merger.

Ferd

Great post Flare. I've only seen the bullet points of the TA. You guys have the whole thing?

It was emailed to the pilot group this morning.

If you think your more safe by voting "no" you got a harsh reality coming. With the rate that airlines are ripping through cash at, where do think DAL will come up with the money to pay for those B777s? You think that these orders and options are the solution to $140 barrel oil? They don't do you a whole lot of good when you can't pay for the gas and you can't fill the seats. DAL may be looking at the possibility of hiring in the fall, but we all know that could change tomorrow, or it may have changed already. Stop thinking about the fall or next year even, and start thinking about the long term.

There is an INCREDIBLE RISK in voting NO, because this merger is going to happen. And if there isn't parity and equality from day one we might as well of stayed seperate because we would have been better off.

I think this TA is going to get a NO VOTE from the Delta pilots except a miracle happens.

No improvement to our pockets and pilots all want to be rewarded. No one cares about the fact airplanes are getting parked. If a big cake is getting shared and I worked very hard to make the cake, then why am I not getting my fair share of the goodies. I do not want to wait for you to bake another cake. Lets share this cake first and wait togather..

Accepting the TA is not going to make things alright and it will be many years before we can fight for an improvement to our contract.

Give all our future hopes up because the Northwest guys have gotten their improvements.

Frankly I do not give two hoots about Northwest and their pilots. They have Nalwaapa or whatever it is called looking out for them. I am concerned about Delta pilots and what is the boss going to do for us!! :D

You guys have gotten yours and it is time we Delta pilots fight for ours and when we get it. YOU WILL GET EVEN MORE.

YOU MAY BE LOOKING AT A 100% PAY INCREASE BY THE TIME THE SMOKE CLEARS:)

I would merge with an airline from Mars for such a pay increase..:D

You're playing with some serious fire in today's economy. Watch out, or you might get burned. And you got yours remember, it's called LOA 19. It's funny how DAL guys didn't have a problem with that, but now this TA is just unacceptable. It's just never enough for some.:rolleyes:

You big bad Northwest boys and gals:cool: way to go folks. It is good to see someone getting a decent pay raise in this industry:D

I feel we should give shooting the TA down a shot. No harm in trying. The roof is not going to fall on our heads today! And the Delta pilot group has never turned down a TA. We need to establish the will of our pilot group and send our MEC a clear message that they should do a better job of determining our wishes before acting. Sort of putting them on notice.

Did you ever read that comic book, Asterix and the Gauls. The guy who was always running and hiding afraid of shadows. That has never look like me and Delta is filled with warriors.:D

I completely agree. The merger will happen, and mgmt will need both pilot groups in order to get it done. The "new" Delta can't succeed without us.

We (DAL pilots) need to take a long term view and vote this TA down. Is it a risk? Yes. But the merger itself is a risk. This is the only time we'll have the slightest amount of leverage. Does anyone think we'll have any leverage when this POS becomes amendable in several years? By then, there will be some new "crisis" (cabotage? price of vegetable fuel?) and the mantra will once again be that we need to give up what we're due to the "environment."

We're never going to get what we require unless we have the stones to take a risk. DAL pilots have nothing to lose by turning this down, which is why I've been harping for weeks that the "goodies" need to be evenly distributed. NWA guys want parity. So do DAL guys. What is NALPA going to give up in order to ensure (as Speedbird says) that DAL pilots get a piece of the cake they made?

Even in this "environment," management will have no choice but to find some way to get us on board after we turn this down. They have too much invested in this merger to walk away.

We need to send this back with a giant "hell no" stamped on it. Yes, other airlines are furloughing. Yes, oil is affecting us. But if this merger is truly going to create the juggernaut management is predicting, we need a bigger piece right now. We simply must not give in to panic.

We need to take a risk. When you consider the above points (and LOA 19), a "no" result has a limited potential downside--but a huge potential upside.

Vote "no."

Man, you the baby, and Speedbird need to put it down. Drugs are bad. Funny how you were for LOA 19, but you shoot this down.

johnso29...you can vote the way that's best for you.

DAL guys will do what's best for us.

Sure, go ahead and give your MEC the Finger after you have been "behind" them up to this point. After all they do have all the FACTS, Unlike you, and BOTH sides ratified this UNANIMOUSLY because they KNOW based on FACTs we NEED this.

Continue on thinking you are smarter than those that really make the decisions.:cool:

Look around the industry and tell me where your leverage is. Aloha, Maxjet, EOS, SilverJet, Skybus, Skyway, Champion, and ATA have ALL SHUT their doors in the last year due to fuel prices. UAL is parking 100 airplanes and furloughing 950 pilots. CAL is parking 60 plus airplanes and doing everything to prevent furloughing. AA is slashing capacity, and most likely furloughing again(some never made it off the street), Southwest and AirTran are slowing/stopping growth, AirTran is threating to fire(NOT furlough, but FIRE) 100 probationary FOs. MidWest Express is parking ALL of its MD80s and furloughing. They want their guys to take a 50% pay cut with their 8 yr 717FOs making $37 hr.

The list goes on and on, yet you think that you can get more. Maybe you should be on the DALPA, because apparently those experienced guys who have been in this business much longer than you don't agree with you, otherwise I'm sure they would have not UNANIMINOUSLY AGREED to the TA. Clearly they think this is the best available, but maybe you should call them and tell them they have more leverage and to get back to the table.

I am willing to bet he wont go up to his reps and give them the finger like he does on here. :cool: Evidently he thinks their Unanimous opinion is worthless.:confused:

Spaceman,
As a fellow employee that has been reading your posts over the last few months I am stunned by your overall level of mistrust and negativity. I'm not trying to slam you, however, you represent a very vocal minority at DAL.

While I understand and expect some negative aspects to this merger in the short-term; I firmly believe that the pilots of the two combined carriers are in the best position, from an overall industry perspective, to prosper in the coming years.

It is easy to rush to judgment, to slam the process, or to point fingers at the other pilot group; however, as professionals we should keep a cool head until we have all the facts. We have a TA that is in print for us to review and we are awaiting an SLI. While I don't think this merger will pass without a few speed-bumps, it is happening and happening now. So if voting no makes you feel better then that is your right; however, you will be voting against 78% of DAL pilots that voted yes on LOA19. We are not hung up on what the other guys are getting that we are not, but more concerned with how to best position ourselves for the future. Fear and uncertainty bring out some defensive traits in people, however, that isn't a reason to degrade NWA pilots, after all we are DAL pilots!!!!

Over!

Both Committees did some really good work to make this fair and balanced. The NWA pilots are getting a "better" deal due to their relative position, but I'm not envious of my brother's gains and would not have it any other way.

The Delta pilots will not lose much if they vote this down, but what will they gain? 1 arbitrator instead of 3? An undermined MEC going into SLI?

If I thought holding this up would get us better scope, I'd try. But candidly I think scope is more of a priority to our NWA guys than it is us. The NWA side is clearly evident inasmuch as we adopted most of NWA's scope language and flow agreements.

I would like help for the inevitable commuting that this will cause after we get a single Certificate. I'd like to get Compass and their E175/E190 type on the property.

My vote went from an angry NO to a very pleasant YES after reading not only the JPWA but also the agreements on SLI process and the SLI No Prejudice letters.

Super92... you may be the #1 pilot in our airline some day. Glad it will be someone with your attitude (but don't go and get the big head).

First...78% of DAL pilots did vote for LOA 19, which I supported, and which is a great temporary insurance policy. It's not a great TA. I don't think we'll see anywhere near 78% of pilots approving the TA.

Second, I'm not slamming anyone. Everyone should do what he/she thinks is best for himself. I have no animosity towards individual pilots, period. But I won't be told what to think, nor will I give in to the general sense of panic that I've been told I should be feeling. This merger is going to make a lot of executives rich. If we can stick it out and are willing to take a risk, it could make a lot of pilots rich, too.

Or (if we rubber stamp the TA), it can just be another step sideways in this ever-deteriorating profession.

Third, you state that "We have a TA that is in print for us to review and we are awaiting an SLI." I'd far prefer an SLI in print to review while awaiting the TA.

Lastly, you state that "As a fellow employee that has been reading your posts over the last few months...." Yet I see you have made exactly one post, and joined the forum this month. Why did you change screen names?

GREAT POST!!
Also completely agree you and I appreciate the kind words. :D

Thats not going to happen it's been made very clear by BOTH MEC's. They are doing it this way because its the best way based on the FACTS they have. Not to mention we dont need a USAIR mess here at OUR company.