Nosmo King

The 777 is authorized to land on the takeoff and land on the short runway for non-Transpac flights. JAL does it. So is the A330 for south of Tokyo routes.

Slots on the shorter runway are usually used by 757s. Occasionally used by A330 for short legs to ICN and PEK.

NW has 9 transpacs to NRTa day and sometimes flexes to 11-12/day from HNL(2 or 3)/SEA(1 or 2)/PDX/SFO/LAX/MSP(1 or 2)/DTW(2). For south flying from NRT only, NW has daily to SIN, BKK, PVG, HKG, PEK, MNL, ICN, PUS, GUM, SPN and NGO. We are also running AMC charters between Yokota and Kadena. We have additional transpacs from KIX and NGO to HNL/DTW and additional interport from KIX some of which originates in NRT.

Of those flights the short runway can be used for Departures to PEK, ICN, PUS, GUM/SPN (if not tankering extra fuel) and NGO. For Arrivals it can be used for HNL/SEA/PDX/SFO/PEK/ICN/BUS/NGO/KIX/GUM/SPN by all A330 and 757.

The upcoming SEA-PEK flight is supposed to be a 330 and DTW-SHA is supposed to be a super premium 747-400, but that is all pre-merger planning.

We have all heard the speculation about JFK-NRT and ATL-NRT on the -400 post merger.

The question is, when they move all the A330s out of Asia, will their replacement be able to Depart south of Tokyo from the Short Runway when we lose our cargo slots on the long runway. I don't know enough about the 767, or which model 767 will be deployed to Asia, to answer that question.

Edit: I forgot to add Guangzhou as a south of Japan interport route and I have deliverately not included East of CONUS international flying since its not related to the NRT Slot topic.

acl65pilot

I am assuming the ER. It has the big motors. It will have the power for the short runway for the current 757 flying.

dtfl

as we speak of cargo ops....

New Delta Cargo Web site offers one-stop customer convenience
October 3, 2008


Delta Cargo has updated its Web site to provide a one-stop solution for cargo customers worldwide. Deltacargo.com offers freight customers the ability to conduct global booking, tracking and tracing; obtain rates for most international and domestic products; and access dynamic information from any Internet connection in the world. The updated site also gives customers access to our expanded international network that includes the addition of more than 60 new routes since 2006.

“We remain committed to providing increased service, value, and simplification of the cargo shipping experience for our customers,” said Neel Shah, v.p.-Delta Cargo. “The launch of the new deltacargo.com is the result of a long and collaborative process between Delta and GF-X, the creators of the world’s most comprehensive multi-carrier online cargo reservations system. The result is a robust and comprehensive solution that integrates the latest technology with Delta’s commitment to customer service.”

To help customers familiarize themselves, the site has an interactive demo feature on its home page with audio instructions in English and Spanish.

Ferd149

ACL,

I think your missing the point. You have great info on here but I'm not sure you understand the slots. So, what scares me is the guys that are giving you the info don't understand the slots.

You can replace the 757 flying with the ER as you describe, but that does nothing for the slots off the long (west) runway that are held by the cargo ops. It will take a large number of transpacs to replace the cargo flying, and I remind you that the Japaneese would love to have those slots go to NAC or JAL Cargo.

Also, how many seats on the ER? It may in fact be too much of an airplane for the 757 markets other than CAN (Guangzhou)? This is the mistake that United makes, running mostly empty big airplanes on thin routes.

I may be missing your point............always possible.

Frats,
Ferd

acl65pilot

No I understand what you are saying.

I am just telling you what I have heard. I am not saying it is the correct answer.

I do see a lot more in the way of passenger transpacs. I know that the DAL boys who in essence are NWA boys will not give these slots up. It may take some time, but the 742's that do cargo will be phased out.
Personally, I would love to see a dedicated cargo op. I feel it would make money.

finis72

My 2 cents worth:The 76ER will replace the 330 in asian ops,the 330's will move to Europe and SA.DL will not give up slots,they will use the cargo slots for JFK-NRT, an additional ATL-NRT and a HNL-NRT(767-400 flying ATL-HNL-NRT).I imagine they will use 777's to backfill for the 744's they move to ATL.Lots of DH time.The fun starts this spring.

acl65pilot

That it does, and most of that has been looked at.

Nosmo King

I'll try to make what is at stake here as clear as mud. Red text defines the rights of incumbent US all-cargo airlines under the 1952 agreement and subsequent amendments. What is at stake here is that if its not an all-cargo flight, i.e. not a dedicated freighter, it starts counting as multiple frequencies instead of just ONE frequency.

Text in pink is important because as NW/DL gives up its dedicated freighter operation, there will be another all-cargo airline (Think Brown) lobbying to be designated as the "substitute" incumbent all-cargo carrier to replace NW/DL. It requires 60 days notice.

There is no good reason for anyone in the US Government to deny this request since denying it hurts a large all-cargo US airline while helping two Japanese airlines.

Denying the substitution certainly wouldn't help NW/DL frequencies as we will no longer qualify as an all-cargo airline, but there would be a minor financial benefit of less competition for freight that we still carry in the bellies of passenger aircraft. The problem is whether its denied or not the Japanese government will have a strong case to revoke some of the NW/DL slots at NRT (the ones granted to the all-cargo airline). This will not only affect slots at Narita but also the fifth freedom cargo rights and unrestricted cargo route authority between the US and Japan.

Why can't we do this under our unlimited "Combination Airline" authority?

Because there is one extra sentence added to the end of the Combination Airline paragraph in the MOU that ends with "without limitation except on passenger fifth freedom operations as set out in subsection 2, below."

subsection 2 then adds some restrictions that limit fifth freedom based on tid and fourth freedom passenger traffic.

Clear as mud, isn't it...


2. The U.S. Incumbent All-Cargo Airlines

Three (3) airlines designated by the United States (hereinafter referred to as the "U.S. incumbent all-cargo airlines") [FN11] pursuant to the 1952 Agreement may operate all-cargo services between any point or points behind the United States, any point or points in the United States, any intermediate point or points, any point or points in Japan, and any point or points beyond Japan, without any limitation on frequency, capacity, or traffic composition. [FN12]

FN11. Subject to the right of the United States, provided for in the 1952 Agreement, to substitute airlines, the U.S. incumbent all-cargo airlines shall be Federal Express, Northwest Airlines, and United Airlines.

FN12. No formula will apply to U.S. incumbent all-cargo services.

4. Provisions Applicable to All-Cargo Airlines Designated by Japan and the United States

(a) For purposes of frequency limitations on all-cargo services under the 1985 MOU, the 1989 MOU, the 1995 ROC, and this 1996 MOU, as amended, any all-cargo flight from the territory of either Party to the territory of the other Party, and a return flight in the opposite direction, shall together constitute one frequency regardless of the number of traffic stops made in the territory of either Party or whether or not the flight operates beyond the territory of the other Party. If an airline does not operate a return flight, the flight in one direction shall still constitute one frequency.
(b) For purposes of all-cargo services to the beyond points referred to in paragraphs B 1(e) and B 2(a), above, the two beyond points may be served on a single flight or separate flights.
(c) Each Party may, on sixty (60) days notice, designate substitute airlines for any of the incumbent and non-incumbent all-cargo airlines.

Nosmo King

I'll try to make what is at stake here as clear as mud. Red text defines the rights of incumbent US all-cargo airlines under the 1952 agreement and subsequent amendments. What is at stake here is that if its not an all-cargo flight, i.e. not a dedicated freighter, it starts counting as multiple frequencies instead of just ONE frequency.

Text in pink is important because as NW/DL gives up its dedicated freighter operation, there will be another all-cargo airline (Think Brown) lobbying to be designated as the "substitute" incumbent all-cargo carrier to replace NW/DL. It requires 60 days notice.

There is no good reason for anyone in the US Government to deny this request since denying it hurts a large all-cargo US airline while helping two Japanese airlines.

Denying the substitution certainly wouldn't help NW/DL frequencies as we will no longer qualify as an all-cargo airline, but there would be a minor financial benefit of less competition for freight that we still carry in the bellies of passenger aircraft. The problem is whether its denied or not the Japanese government will have a strong case to revoke some of the NW/DL slots at NRT (the ones granted to the all-cargo airline). This will not only affect slots at Narita but also the fifth freedom cargo rights and unrestricted cargo route authority between the US and Japan.

Why can't we do this under our unlimited "Combination Airline" authority?

Because there is one extra sentence added to the end of the Combination Airline paragraph in the MOU that ends with "without limitation except on passenger fifth freedom operations as set out in subsection 2, below."

subsection 2 then adds some restrictions that limit fifth freedom based on percentages of third and fourth freedom passenger traffic.

Clear as mud, isn't it...


2. The U.S. Incumbent All-Cargo Airlines

Three (3) airlines designated by the United States (hereinafter referred to as the "U.S. incumbent all-cargo airlines") [FN11] pursuant to the 1952 Agreement may operate all-cargo services between any point or points behind the United States, any point or points in the United States, any intermediate point or points, any point or points in Japan, and any point or points beyond Japan, without any limitation on frequency, capacity, or traffic composition. [FN12]

FN11. Subject to the right of the United States, provided for in the 1952 Agreement, to substitute airlines, the U.S. incumbent all-cargo airlines shall be Federal Express, Northwest Airlines, and United Airlines.

FN12. No formula will apply to U.S. incumbent all-cargo services.

4. Provisions Applicable to All-Cargo Airlines Designated by Japan and the United States

(a) For purposes of frequency limitations on all-cargo services under the 1985 MOU, the 1989 MOU, the 1995 ROC, and this 1996 MOU, as amended, any all-cargo flight from the territory of either Party to the territory of the other Party, and a return flight in the opposite direction, shall together constitute one frequency regardless of the number of traffic stops made in the territory of either Party or whether or not the flight operates beyond the territory of the other Party. If an airline does not operate a return flight, the flight in one direction shall still constitute one frequency.
(b) For purposes of all-cargo services to the beyond points referred to in paragraphs B 1(e) and B 2(a), above, the two beyond points may be served on a single flight or separate flights.
(c) Each Party may, on sixty (60) days notice, designate substitute airlines for any of the incumbent and non-incumbent all-cargo airlines.

Ferd149

Wow!!

Thanks!! I didn't understand the slots as good as I thought I did!

I know we have the Asian NWA VP who will be the new Delta's VP for Pacific Ops (or what ever they call it) so I hope she can splain it all.

Ferd