Originally Posted by Scoop (Post 489655)

Carl,
I agree that there is a lot of Kool-aid being sloshed around at both sides but especially from the recent DAL hires. Being ex-military I was a kool-aid drinker and thought I was actually a valued employee - right up until I was furloughed, with a no-furlough clause intact. At that point the kool-aid developed a bitter after taste that still remains and I refuse to touch the stuff. That is when it dawned on me that I was just a cost to be minimized so that management could increase the size of their bonus, compenstaion, thievery etc. I am convinced that for a while DAL was not being run to maximize profit, or even minimize losses, but to further enrich management. I hope those days are gone but I will not believe managements words until they are backed up with actions.
Contrary to our management, I think our union guys have been straight shooters all along and since we have no red book - green book rift I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt if their is a discrepancy between the two MEC's, granted I am not an unbiased observer.

Scoop

Originally Posted by Denny Crane (Post 489649)

Carl,

One of my basic objections to the NW proposed DOH list is that any new equipment that comes on property will be filled by a former NW pilot and could very well move a DL pilot who is currently on that equipment down and possibly off that equipment.

Example: Per the NW proposed fence, I believe 290 777 capt positions are fenced. Say in 5 years we now have 350 capt positions on the 777. They will all be filled by NW pilots because of a DOH list and NW getting 1500 of the top 1800 positions(approx) and thereby inhibiting any movement for the DL side and pushing DL pilots that were already on that equipment more junior.

Now these aircraft are not on firm order but our agreement with Boeing is different than most and has been explained before. Your Merger committee also wants to fence off 315 Capt positions on the 787 that wont be delivered for, at the least, a year and probably not until 2010.

I guess my problem comes from being able to envision any new widebody capt positions going to former NW pilots, and I will qualify it, ALMOST exclusively and thereby hindering any pre-merger DL pilots advancement to these positions that would have been available to them.

Denny

Originally Posted by nwaf16dude (Post 489720)

Orders firmed up and delivered after DCC are treated as growth aircraft that are shared 1:1. So, your number of 290 protected captains would grow over time if and when additional aircraft are delivered.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 489562)

I'm hearing a move toward ALOS (Adjusted Length Of Service). Our strike time would count against us at the top, and furlough time would count against guys at the middle and bottom. ALOS treats the bottom a lot more fairly because no single group occupies the bottom. Dates of hire in the bottom third will still be skewed toward a DAL advantage, but not quite as bad as the current DAL proposal.

Interesting rumor...

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 489573)

That deal last spring was dead on arrival. If our guys are telling the truth, it was every bit as extreme as the current DAL proposal. If you think movement toward the spring proposal is movement, you are greatly mistaken.



Without fences, you would be right. With the 10 year fence in the NWA proposal, virtually all movement in pre-merger DAL aircraft would go to DAL pilots for 10 years. The fact that so many DAL guys continue to pretend that the 10 year fence either doesn't exist or is some sort of NWA trick, really keeps you from looking at this objectively.

Carl

Originally Posted by Cogf16 (Post 489735)

Carl,

My opinion only, but I think there is NO WAY the arbitors or our teams would sign off on a 10 yr. fence. I think that RA would just not accept it if it somehow got to him. A fence that long illustrates how "out there" DOH is.

Cog

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 489732)

Thanks for that. NWA is 42% of our size, but gets 50% of the growth.

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 489732)

NWA has the fleets most at risk for parking

Originally Posted by slowplay (Post 489732)

NWA has the most paper airplanes (wanna bet whether or not any of those current 787's EVER show up on the property due to performance issues?)

Originally Posted by Cogf16 (Post 489734)

Carl,

ALOS takes your strike time away from your DOH proposal? If so that would really put a dent in your time. What a month or two? If I'm wrong, please expound.