Yes - on the surface that does look extreme. But the proposed 10 year fence that goes along with that means that none of those 1470 positions given to NWA will be useable by any NWA pilot at the expense of any DAL pilot. Why? Because every one of those 1470 NWA pilots will be gone by then...me included.
Pure, unadulterated bullsh!t, Carl, and you know it...those 1470 NW pilots include up to your 31 DEC 1985 hires. DAL has 210 pilots hired 1981 and prior, that leaves #211 and all subsequent hired in Sept. 1985 or later. Under your proposal, in 10 years, a conservative estimate would have 500 to 800 NW pilots,(and ONLY NW pilots) at the top of the list, when the fences come down. Sound fair to you? (NW hired approx. 800 between 1981 and Sept. 1985.) |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 485654)
I think you're right about that Wasatch. That's the weakness in our SLI proposal in my opinion. There should be a similar fence at the bottom as you suggest. The fact that there is not, makes the NWA proposal extreme for the DAL guys at the bottom. The DAL proposal however, is extreme from top to bottom.
Carl -NWA's more near term retirements -NWA's near term aircraft retirements (freighters and possibly more 9's) -Delta's fleet growth 777LR and 737-700's -Delta's more "mid" term retirements -Delta's higher % of widebody/intl aircraft These things would have to be taken into account but they seem to maybe somewhat offset each other. I will tell you most Delta guys think that relative position is a pretty big win for NWA. Can't you see the fairness possible in this simple concept? Cog |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
Carl,
I'm kinda new to forums in general and do not know how to cut and paste quotes so please bear with me. As far as all your guys retiring in the next 10 years, I just perused your seniority list and saw numerous '85 hires with dates of birth of 1956 or later, many in 1960. You are assuming that all these guys are going to retire at age 60 or before and I think that is an invalid assumption, especially base on today's economic environment and even with out it.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
A 10 year fence allows your SL pilots to take advantage of your retirement, as it should, but what about the HUGE number of DAL pilots that start retiring about 2019? You (NW pilots) get the advantage of that as well.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
The Dal pilot list mitigates it just the same as the NW list does, only with a shorter 5 year fence during which most of your senior guys who would retire at 60 will be gone. (Thats up for debate as many have pointed out the high price of healthcare these days!!) I think, due to your hard frozen pension plan, most of your 1985 hires will more than likely stay longer than 60 because they do not have 25 years and, as stated before, high health care costs.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
The argument about the 402 pilots at the bottom has been gone over and over. We will have to agree to disagree on that one. But putting approx. 28 percent of your pilot group in the top 15 to 16 percent of the combined list is incomprehensible to me.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
I sure hope we, both merger committees, can work this out, but I have my doubts. One group has to come off their respective stance and I just dont see that happening.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485633)
Good luck to us all!!!!
I'd love to stay and chat but I have some beer to drink!!! "D Maybe I'll get back on in a little while after I'm all loosened up!!! :D Denny Carl |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 485664)
Yes - on the surface that does look extreme. But the proposed 10 year fence that goes along with that means that none of those 1470 positions given to NWA will be useable by any NWA pilot at the expense of any DAL pilot. Why? Because every one of those 1470 NWA pilots will be gone by then...me included.
Pure, unadulterated bullsh!t, Carl, and you know it...those 1470 NW pilots include up to your 31 DEC 1985 hires. DAL has 210 pilots hired 1981 and prior, that leaves #211 and all subsequent hired in Sept. 1985 or later. Under your proposal, in 10 years, a conservative estimate would have 500 to 800 NW pilots,(and ONLY NW pilots) at the top of the list, when the fences come down. Sound fair to you? (NW hired approx. 800 between 1981 and Sept. 1985.) Carl |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 485654)
I think you're right about that Wasatch. That's the weakness in our SLI proposal in my opinion. There should be a similar fence at the bottom as you suggest. The fact that there is not, makes the NWA proposal extreme for the DAL guys at the bottom. The DAL proposal however, is extreme from top to bottom.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
Fences again!!!
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
Carl, can you guys live with relative position, you know, if you are 20% at NWA you would be 20% +/- maybe 1 % at the new Delta?
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
The devil is in the details with several variables
-NWA's more near term retirements
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
-NWA's near term aircraft retirements (freighters and possibly more 9's)
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
-Delta's fleet growth 777LR and 737-700's
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
-Delta's more "mid" term retirements
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
-Delta's higher % of widebody/intl aircraft
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
These things would have to be taken into account but they seem to maybe somewhat offset each other.
Originally Posted by Cogf16
(Post 485665)
I will tell you most Delta guys think that relative position is a pretty big win for NWA. Can't you see the fairness possible in this simple concept?
Cog Carl |
Carl,
First of all the important stuff!! I'm currently at my favorite hangout and the beer is just fine, as usual!!!!! :D I guess we will disagree on what we consider a "vast majority." My understanding of a hard frozen pension plan is that no one can accrue further benefits and to qualify for the benefits earned, you need to get the full 25 years of service. Hence the 1985 hires will not have a full 25 years of accrued benefit and are more likely to stay until 65 to get more DC and healthcare benefits via medicare. I disagree with your premise that your top 28 percent of guys will be gone within 10 years for the above stated reasons. As far as either side coming off its position, take that statement for what I said. I wasn't suggesting anything. I just don't think either side is going to come off their basic premise and that is going to force an arbitrated list. As you stated with the NW pilots seeing no down side, so do the DL pilots see no down side. I can take your same arguments and give them back to you from my side. Well my battery is about to run out cause I'm long winded and so, again, I'll say good luck to us all!!! :D Denny |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 485672)
The facts don't support you Wiggy. Pure and simple. The testimony showed this clearly.
Carl |
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
(Post 485681)
Carl,
First of all the important stuff!! I'm currently at my favorite hangout and the beer is just fine, as usual!!!!! :D I guess we will disagree on what we consider a "vast majority." My understanding of a hard frozen pension plan is that no one can accrue further benefits and to qualify for the benefits earned, you need to get the full 25 years of service. Hence the 1985 hires will not have a full 25 years of accrued benefit and are more likely to stay until 65 to get more DC and healthcare benefits via medicare. I disagree with your premise that your top 28 percent of guys will be gone within 10 years for the above stated reasons. As far as either side coming off its position, take that statement for what I said. I wasn't suggesting anything. I just don't think either side is going to come off their basic premise and that is going to force an arbitrated list. As you stated with the NW pilots seeing no down side, so do the DL pilots see no down side. I can take your same arguments and give them back to you from my side. Well my battery is about to run out cause I'm long winded and so, again, I'll say good luck to us all!!! :D Denny Good luck to us all and to you Mr. Crane! Carl |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 485682)
So Carl, you're claiming as a fact every NW pilot hired prior to 31 Dec. 1985 will be retired in 10 years? --because the blue and red charts and "clear" testimony and the magic # 62.4 says so? I wouldn't call those "facts" Carl, I would call those "speculations".
Carl |
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