Yikes, so much for my public school education!:o

Cog,

Well, I went through your closing (abet quickly:)) and I don’t see anywhere that you guys describe us as being dishonest. There are a few choice words – wrong headed (p27), flawed assumptions (p32) faulty assumptions (p34). They did describe Tom Dolloway as “less than credible” and that he had a “mischaracterization of delta scheduling provisions (p38).

There is a big discussion on the differences of the snap shot used. We used 1 Jan 2008 and you guys used 1 July 2008. My instinct would have been to use the latest available (that military thinking thing) but we talk about it too in our closing. We may differ in whether the justification makes since but at least both sides are presented.

It was hard reading your closing. I felt pretty beat up reading it so I don’t think you guys are worried that we are getting away with anything that they haven’t caught. On a personal note, I liked your closing (more case law cited) than ours, but I haven’t read all of ours yet.

I agree with the other thread………let’s wait for the smoke to clear after the 8th (or sooner?) and see what Santa Bloch brings. Peace?

Ferd

Peace... And I like your idea of a get together in the ATL with our nametags!

Why use 1 Jan 2008? How about DCC date or as a compromise, 1 Jul 2008... oh wait, thats what we proposed.

Bloch knows who's right :D

PS Did you get my PM?

I think getting the list on Dec. 7th (a day that will live in infamy already:D) would be apropos.:D

DennyCrane

No...it's December 8 because that was the start of the war. :eek::D

Carl

[quote=Ferd149;505199]Cog,

On a personal note, I liked your closing (more case law cited) than ours, but I haven’t read all of ours yet.

Ferd[/quote

I didn't like either one - too many big words and not enough of these guys :) :mad:. Some pictures would have been nice also.

Scoop

All Americans will sadly remember the day the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.:) From the number one comedy movie of all time "Animal House." Sorry Carl, "Caddyshack" is number two. And I am not making this up either, they are the official VH-1 Ratings, and we all know how official that is.

Scoop

And you call yourself an "Airplane" pilot... tsk tsk tsk...

Steve

I agree Scoop, Animal House was as good as it gets.

I also remember that when Bluto gave everyone that history lesson of who bombed Pearl Harbor, it was right after Dean Wormer released Bluto's grade point average of zero point zero.

7 years of college down the drain. :D

Carl

Hey,
Surely you must realize that Airplane makes my Top 10 list also.

Scoop :)

Thanks for the softball... and don't call me Shirley

Steve

Still makes me laugh, particularly the labels on the magazine rack:

YouTube - Airplane - Funny name confusion

and talking about seniority:

YouTube - Airplane! 2 Dunn, Over, Under

"I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese Empire."

Declared December 8th, a state of war since the attack on December 7th.

The DC-9 is a "furlough jet." Your mgmt has told as much by systematically parking them. They are 35+ years old, horribly inefficient, and the flying was quickly being replaced by commuter jets from Mesaba and Compass. Your 787's are coming in who knows when and NWA will not pay to keep hundreds of pilots on the payroll while they waited. You guys rightously made deals to keep as many guys on the property as you could but eventually the numbers would have caught up with you. NWA's old fleet and past commuter jet concessions should not be carried on the backs of the DAL pilot group. When gas skyrocketed, the majority of our cuts came at the commuter level thus saving mainline jobs.

:rolleyes: Not worth it

That "furlough jet', the DC-9 was probably one of the most innovative decisions NWA management ever made. Instead of buying hundreds of marginally more capable aircraft, they redid the interiors and kept the old bird flying, safely, and cost effectively. When there are zillions of 150 seat MD-80's parked, the DC-9 is still flying. And the executives responsible for that decision populate the inner ring of Delta Airlines as well as several other airlines. The pilots that flew it, and fly it, have better skills that the rest of us that have moved into the technical crutch cockpits. They are not NWA DC-9 pilots. They are Delta Airline pilots that fly the DC-9. When the SLI is completed, and if furloughs are a reality, they will come in reverse seniority order, and not from the "furlough jet". I flew it for 15 years, those of you on this board continually denigrating the DC-9 are clueless. It is our jet, they are paid for, at 100 seats fill a niche that nothing else does. Long may she fly. And if you are junior at the new "Delta", pray it does, and brush up on you cross check, and stick and rudder skills, or it may bite you hard!

You really don't have an argument here. If you think you do, you might wanna take a look at the DAL RJ parade in JFK and ATL. Oh, and SLC too. And where's DALs 100 seat mainline airplane? Oh yeah, in the desert. Looks like NWA held on to scope longer. And how many pilots has NWA furloughed since fuel skyrocketed? ZERO! And in regards to the #s catching up to us, we haven't even applied the new staffing formula champ. Therefore, your theory that are furlough mitigations failed, and the merger saved us, is incorrect. Nice argument though, really. :rolleyes:

Its not worth arguing with people like him. They obviously believe that Delta sits beautifully at the end of the rainbow and that NWA brings nothing to the table. The DC9 is the RDs chance at fixing their screwup of letting that flying go. The DC9s and the flying they bring is Mainline flying and its now Delta Mainline flying. The 100 seat market is now the Combined DAL pilots flying and its ours to lose. We are all responsible for ensuring it stays at mainline. OUR scope protects it and should continue to protect it. These planes are especially helpful when fuel is falling, the credit market is swamped making financing harder to come by, and the flexibility to redeploy these aircraft anywhere. They can and will likely take back flying from the regionals. 2 dc9s can move the same people as 2-3 50 seaters. As DAL pulls down capacity they can remove frequency without giving up seats by using the DC9s.

These planes are NOW Delta planes. The sooner the RD side realizes that they are their planes and jobs now, the sooner we can work together to protect that flying from here on out.

Wow, my hat is off to those of you trying to reason with people who justify their self worth by criticizing others. Luckily, I think they are in the minority on both sides. Everyone that I have come in contact with while jumpseating realize that both sides are bringing value to the marriage.
It's going to be a tough merger for those that march around with a feeling of superiority.

Delta does not sit at the end of a rainbow. And I do acknowledge that the 9's are ours and we MUST protect scope. But with 35 yr old airplanes in an RNAV world, how long do they realistically have left flying. How much $$ goes into their heavy mx cycles. You have to admit that economically speaking, the company cannot afford to replace the airframes as fast as they will retire them. I hope the 787 is onboard by then to help. From SLI testimony, as the 9's have been retired, RJ's have replaced them. Do 73's have the same staffing but 50% more seats. I realize and am a proponent of all getting along. As a line pilot, what control do we really have over SLI, contracts etc? BTW, I do have over three years flying the 9 so I have some experience with it. Let me be the first to say if you haven't heard already, "Welcome Aboard."

You know what Bigflya, you crossed my line with your comments. Your backtracking is palpable. Furlough jets indeed. Do yourself a favor, get off probation, look around at the human beings with families and lives, commitments, and problems and then come back to me with your furlough jets. Trust me, and I've been here over 30 times longer than you have, your day in the barrel will come. Until you realize the guy or gal sitting next to you is more than an operator of a furlough jet, one of the least of your problems is a furlough.

By the way, a "source" has told me that they are going to put some kind of GPS in those old, innefficient, furlough jets so they can fly shuttle ops up and down the East coast. And I can honestly say I have never thrown the "source" word around here.

Maybe people will leave the -9 alone after December 8th. Maybe.

So if the former NW planes are Delta planes then the former NW pilots are Delta pilots too. Thus when one retires all Delta pilots move up and benefit from that retirement, huh? It goes both ways fellas, that's all we're saying.

Two's In on your Wing!

Even under the NWA proposal, YOU would move up in numbers when a NWA pilot retires. Only positions are blocked off, BOTH on the NWA and DAL sides. It goes both ways fellas, thats all we're saying. ;)

The DAL side keeps saying they dont want to fly our aircraft anyway so whats the problem? ;)

Ego bidding
 

An old 727 Captain once told me: "I think I'll bid the L-1011. Don't really want to fly it, but I hate to see anybody junior to me get the thing." ;)

Excellent point!

Lighten up Francis.

Carl

No, under your proposal when a NW guy retires only NW guys move up the list, leapfrogging more senior Delta guys. Your fence proposal also ends at the precise time that the Delta retirements out number the NW ones. How many times have we heard you and others harping about "Delta benefiting from OUR retirements!"? If they are your retirements then their your jets that are being parked and your furloughs. If you want to share the pain then you have to share the gain. If we are one group then we all benefit from guys leaving at the top and we all suffer from planes leaving at the bottom.

That's not true satchip. I've posted the exact language of the NWA proposed fence, and there is no leap frogging. None.

The leap frogging you cite was the concept of dynamic seniority as it relates to actual attrition. That concept was if the list was constructed via a RATIO. There is no such dynamic seniority concept as part of the NWA proposal which is Date of Hire and a 10 year fence.

You are correct about the fences expiring too close to when DAL retirements begin to kick in. I think the fences should extend to the end of DAL's big retirement push to be fair.

All just a moot point now though, but I wanted you and everyone else to be clear on what the NWA proposal is and what it isn't.

Carl

I agree that we should just all as a group take what both sides are bringing. Unfortunately neither of us made the proposals or has a real say in it. However under the NWA proposal there would be no leap frogging in seniority numbers. Everyone would move up the list as attrition took place. What the proposal does do though is block out certain positions on BOTH sides so that only the original pilots of each airframe could bid them until the period of time expired. Therefore as attrition takes place in those positions, let say the 747 than only NWA pilots would be eligible to bid those seats. Same goes for the blocked off DAL seats. What this does is it allows the NWA side to get the benefits of our sides retirements without having the RD swooping in and taking those positions. The DAL side also has the same protections during the same period of time. Its not perfect but that was the jist of it.

Bottom line is EVERYONE moves up in numbers so there is no leap frogging of seniority. If there gets to be a point to where there arent enough people to bid those positions then the other side will be able to bid them.

Good thing is that the arbitrators have already said on a couple of occasions that neither sides list will be used so we can all look at the other sides proposal as worst case scenario. ;)

Carl you are correct I did mix metaphors so to speak. Your DOH proposal fence expires at the time of the Delta retirements and your dynamic lists proposes leapfrogging. Both proposals fail to meet ALPA merger policy as presently stated and fail to meet the fair and equitable standard. We have argued those points ad nauseum. The point is if positive attrition due to retirements is an equity (which by the way, it has never been recognized as one in the past) then negative attrition due to aircraft retirements should be a negative equity factored into the equation. You can't take ownership of one and not the other. Any list that uses the equity of attrition to place one subset of the group ahead of another must also account for the negative attrition equity also.

Here's the problem with your argument. We still have DC9s(60+). They're still flying. There's NO OFFICIAL plan to park them in your phantom 5 year time period. Therefore, it's unjustified to put the so called "responsibility of the furlough jet" on NWA pilots. They're STILL FLYING. WE'VE FURLOUGHED NO ONE!!!!! Show me the press release that says they're all being parked. That's right, there isn't one.

I think the plans that you are looking for will start to take form very shortly after the SLI. (12.09.08)

You mean DC9s coming out of storage?! :D

I'm guessing the opposite though. You're not supposed to say stuff like that. Your source is too good. :(

Like the Delta over expanded in Europe furloughs. You wanted it to cut both ways...

I thought we were going to stop all this cr@p.

If not, then both sides need to try some new material. This is boring.

Well, I'll be the first to admit I didn't follow my own advice. Sorry guys. I'm back to not arguing this. As I said earlier, it's over.