NWA SLI Shenanigans
 

Check out 16 Nov transcripts page 2474 thru about 2492. Its a detailed discussion of NWA's contention that 68% of age 60 pilots retired at or near 60 after the rule was changed to 65 last December. Many troubling revelations come to light. Many examples of already retired guys being counted, younger guys retired under the perp program being counted, and guys still on the list today being counted! Very disturbing. Please read for yourself.

Some of this stuff may have been inadvertent. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt. No sense being "disturbed". These merger committees will be dissolved soon and the MECs will combine and we're gonna be one happy family. (hopefully)

Either way, the DAL guys caught it in time. The result is going to be extra scrutiny of the lists on both sides. That's a good thing. We want a clean list as the end product that everyone will have confidence in.

Cog,

Yeah that is very interesting!! Sounds like the DL guys asked repeatedly for the information over quite awhile and still couldn't get a straight answer.

Maybe this is just my natural paranoia (or glass half empty:D) showing thru, but I wonder if anything else like this was missed.

Denny

O
 

Oh my, this thread should be very entertaining!

Don't know for sure, but I'm sure the info is only as good as what we get from the company.......and most of them are probably writing resumes.

But, then again your right............we're slime.

KMA

The Delta pilots seem to know more about who is on the NWA list than the NWA pilots do, how can that be?

I'm wondering if Bloch does his "pull out-put in" and happens to grab a couple of NWA's deceased, retired, retired / disabled, or otherwise absentee phantom Captains, is NWA going to complain?

Look!

This is really dumb. It's a leagal proceeding, if you think we would be crazy and try and mislead the board, you guys are........anyway, I'm outta here.

Disgusted,
Ferd

Ferd,

No disrespect intended and if you feel so, then I apologize. But, if you have read the transcripts, what other conclusions can we infer from this? Doesn't the union keep track of this stuff separately from the company to keep them honest.

I know I'm predjudiced and look at these issues with a definate slant, as most of us do. I try to keep an open mind but, from reading the transcripts, on the surface it does look incriminating to me. Please enlighten me and I mean no disrespect. You seem like a very level headed individual and I value your opinion and am looking forward to the Saipan tour!!!!:D

Denny

I agree with Ferd on this one.I think it's counter productive to portray our fellow pilots as somehow being dishonest.I'm sure to some reading a bunch of lawyer drivel is entertaining,as for me I'd rather be drinking.Remember this is a bunch of lawyers talking,they all lie

Sorry to offend anyone. The integrity of the process is built on the integrity of the data. This is particularly true since NWA is arguing for a slotted system where mistakes in their data only benefit NWA.

I do not know why NWA showed up with bad data and why Delta was able to determine it was bad data. It would just seem that NWA would have better intel than anyone else. It is not a characterization of anyone, we don't know why they screwed up, but we know who it benefits.

Be offended if you want, but considering the effect that even one bad entry on a slotted, or dynamic list, has on the other 7,000 pilots who are not slotted, it is a big deal.

Worse, I think Bloch is buying off on a form of a slotted system. That seems to be what he indicated with several of his statements.

Bar, Good post.The size of my dog in this fight is about that of a gerbil,I understand what you are saying,My only caution is to make sure we realize the NW negotiators are trying to get the best deal they can for their constituents.The average line pouges from either side are just carrying pax around trying to make a living and hoping for the best on the SLI.I'm sure there's some fancy latin phrase for let the buyer beware and that is what our MEC is doing.

Alright, I'll go back and re-read the transcripts (just for Denny:D). My impression scanning through the first time was the dalpa lawyer playing gotcha with "requests for info". But, I'll re-read it.

Also, I just did a long look at the national ALPA board. We have been convinced for a long time that there are some dalpa P2P guys on there doing instant issue reactions/counterpoints (think the election campaign blogs). I picture guys in a dark boiler room with talking points pasted to a board:eek:.

With that said, NO ONE on the national ALPA board is talking about this. I'm sure if it was an issue, one of the dalpa moles would be banging that drumb.

Trust me, no one it trying to mislead anyone. We have really great guys on the merger committee!

Ferd

Since I started the thread, I feel compelled to jump in. I echo the sentiments of those who are trying to give these lawyers the benefit of the doubt, but I still can't quite get over the POSSIBILITY that this was done with the intent to unfairly manipulate the process. At the very least, it makes the NWA guys look fairly unprepared. Of course the errors were in their favor!

What about when your MEC Chairman "couldn't recall" receiving info about the possibility of furloughs? The DAL side produced the actual email!

I'm more disgusted than you are.

PG

Pineapple:

Very true.

You know a man by his actions.

We did not call anyone, any names, the actions simply speak for them.

You might consider the very real possibility that there are no DALPA moles on the ALPA boards, or any of these boards for that matter, and that's why there are no DALPA moles banging the drums on the ALPA forum.

Sigh,

Ok, first of all this is all on 11/15 not 11/16. But, go look at the cross at pages 2524 to 2536. Looks like formating and the differences of how we count DRP guys vs how you carry disability guys. Also, your guy doesn't want to seem to give us credit for PERP guys.

I'm done here with this, see you boys after the 8th.

I was fairly disgusted by that also. The DALPA committee has uncovered several "errors" made by the NALPA merger committee throughout these proceedings, all of which suspiciously benefits NWA pilots. Errors such as counting retired pilots as active when it benefits NWA pilots, active pilots as retired when it benefits NWA pilots, forgetting that they were told there would be NWA furloughs, bogus information such as claiming crews for 94 DC-9s when counting captain jobs when there are far fewer than that, putting up route maps which show routes that NWA no longer flies, producing flight plans as evidence for flights they don't do with uncharacteristic cargo and passenger loads, testifying to the range on the A320 with fuel tank configurations that are not in the NWA fleet, under counting the average number of pay hours a month Delta pilots receive in order to skew compensation numbers. Why can't they be accurate? It's not that difficult to count airframes and know who is and who isn't on your list, produce actual route maps, actual flight plans and actual data for your aircraft based on how they are actually configured. A simple thing like knowing the status of who is and who isn't on your list isn't that hard, you don't need it to be published by the company, certainly NALPA knows who is and who isn't paying dues.

I understand trying to get the best deal for your guys, it's different than trying to get a fair deal for all, but I see a disturbing trend which suggests an effort to use less than accurate information in order to gain advantage in arbitration and therefore benefit on the back of another pilot. This is a zero sum gain, any NWA pilot who benefits from bogus information presented by the NWA merger committee does so at the expense of another pilot. That's just not right.

[quote=Ferd149;502659]Sigh,

Ok, first of all this is all on 11/15 not 11/16. But, go look at the cross at pages 2524 to 2536. Looks like formating and the differences of how we count DRP guys vs how you carry disability guys. Also, your guy doesn't want to seem to give us credit for PERP guys.

There's more to it than formating errors, there were guys being counted who retired in 2006. As for the PERP guys, it seems disingenous at best to use a PERP as the basis for determining future retirement trends. A PERP was bought off to retire and mitigate the need for furloughs. How would you react if DALPA produced data which shows that the average DAL pilot retires at 55.2 years of age and used the average age of DAL retirements from 2002-2005 as the basis for that assumption? I think you'd have a problem with it.

Here you guys go:

YouTube - Super Troopers...Shenanigans

Disturbing
 

The fact that this is turning into many, not one specific incident of the NWA MEC producing "false" information is very disturbing.

Let's call this as it is. The NWA MEC is trying to hose the Delta pilots.

Darn, ya caught us. Guess ya better call the arbitration police. :rolleyes:
You ladies just don't stop. The hearings are done, we have NO CONTROL over any of it, and you're still throwing out conspiracy theories as if someones gonna throw a yellow flag and give the NWA MEC a 15 yard penalty. :rolleyes: Stop driving the wedge. The list will be out in a little over two weeks and we can all get on with our lives. Jeez, let it go.

Johnso,

If ANY of this is true and I suspect most of it is, you pre NW guys should be as disturbed by it as we are. Merely saying, "lets move on" is disingenuous at best and very irresponsible on your part. Talk about driving a wedge! These fradulent claims, phantom airplanes, routes, pilots, and downright deceit will be more responsible for long time bad feelings than anything we talk about here.

Do you notice how DAL guys are the ONLY ones concerned about it? And lets not even get started on "phantom planes & phantom pilots". Thats the pot calling the kettle black right there. Continually trying to fuel the fire. It's over. Look at the list on the 8th, and move on.

If the Arbitrators buy off on inacurrate data provided by NWA and it harms Delta pilots it is not something that should be let go, it should be fixed. Hopefully it got fixed during rebuttal.

I don't accept the notion that lying is allright to screw your co-workers. When honest mistakes are made, honest people fix the error.

A mistake is a mistake, and I agree it should be corrected. However, the title of this thread implies that these were NOT mistakes, but intentional shenanigans.

Might want to adjust your tin foil hat, there was no conspiracy here.

Johnso:
Let's reverse places here and see the jumping and screaming that would come from the Northwest side.
I agree with the let's look at the list on the 8th, but the damage is done, and will have long term effects.
JMHO.

No jumping and screaming from me. I've got a bad ankle, and I did enough damage from drunken screaming at hockey games in college. ;)

Just about everyone will probably take a hit with this list. But it's done. We can read, analyze, and try to understand transcripts all we want. We can try to point out mistakes, conspiracies, and scream foul play ALL WE WANT. Bottom line. It's done. We're one, and it's time to move on.

Yeah, it's real tough for ALPA to do things like crosscheck dues payment against seniority lists. You'd think a prudent MEC might want to ensure that they're receiving the correct dues. That would definitely reveal who is not paying dues and why (furlough, LTS, or already retired, etc.).

I guess it's too much to ask...:rolleyes:

Apparently seniority is forever at NWA, even after you've retired!:D Now I understand!

The wise guys will have to rule by December 8 if we don't come to agreement by ourselves. Either way, at that time we will be one step away from becoming one. We have the joy of trying to merge two MEC's in a civil fashion right after the SLI.:eek:

I want tickets and at least a 3rd row seat. I think you'll get wet if you sit too close!

I just like a thread that has the word

"Shennanigans"

Of course we're the only ones concerned about it! The errors and omissions all favor NWA guys. What a silly statement.

I hope not. I tried the "pull out" method with a girl friend in college after I "put it in," and I was sweating it for a month.:eek:

Scoop - Tired of rehashing the same arguments that we were hashing 8 months ago. Ferd - hang in there only 3 weeks until the rest of our career!

Wow. This thread took off like a rocket. Sort of like the one when DALPA forgot to add our 747 s/o's to thier proposed seniority list. Oh wait!!! There has been no mention of that....... :rolleyes:

I'm with Ferd. You guys are grasping at straws. :confused:

what a lame thread :rolleyes: get a grip guys

The DALPA proposal placed the second officers with large gauge domestic category first officers.

Page 692 and 693:

We move down to the next and it's a

But we think it's appropriate.

What's lame is a disturbing trend which suggests an effort to intentionally mislead the arbitrators for the purpose of advancing your careers on the backs of your fellow co workers.

You mean like stapling 500 Nwa pilots because the dal pilots portrayed the dc9s as "furlough jets"? Seniority grab off of the backs of your fellow co-workers :cool:

Bottom line is this is out of our hands, January 8th can't get here soon enough so we can get past slot of this drama queen discussions ;)

Errr...ya mean Dec 8 or did we just get extended another 30 days?:cool:

No nothing like that! To equate blatant cheating and dishonesty with a ratio methodology based on FACT (pay rates, size, and documented evidence) is moral relativism of the highest order. You may not agree with our methodology but to use that as justification for out right theft and lying reveals more about you than you may realize.