It isn't included. Has something to do with the JV. I think it's being operated as a subsidiary. Comair could have remained out of bankruptcy, but Delta wanted to bring it in so they could reorganize labor contracts and renegotiate aircraft leases and vendor contracts.

If it makes money or looses money dose not matter.....joint venture or not it is a Mesa asset........who owns those Aircraft out there?......who owns all the ground equipment out there? MESA AIR GROUP........and they have to include all assets and liabilities in order to file any form of BK protection in Federal Court..........BK 101 and any Attorney will tell you the same......They cannot exempt assets

See Above Posts. I read it in the SEC filings like everyone else.

I try hard to stick with facts, and I certainly make it clear when something is my opinion. Any speculation about future events is OBVIOUSLY only my opinion and really doesn't need to be identified as such :rolleyes:

I got screwed by mag, and have earned the right to be PO-ed at the company. I don't have issue with most mag pilots, and most of the ones here at least tried to fight it out during negotiations. If you voted no, I can't ask for more than that.

But I will have a celebratory beer when OJ is gone...either being fired by the BOD or Ch.7.

.
To be fair, the agreements say if they file bankruptsy. It may or not mean bankruptsy protection. After all, MAG isn't actually bankrupt yet.

I think "filing for bankruptcy" and "filing for bankruptcy protection" are the same thing.

They are. But who knows, maybe OJ will try to debate those semantics too ::rolleyes:

This is Delta response. It's on Deltanet


Mesa Air files for bankruptcy protection, no affect on Delta customers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
January 5, 2010





Mesa Air Group announced Tuesday it has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection to restructure its business.

Mesa, which operates 130 aircraft, said in a news release that bankruptcy reorganization was needed to revise its lease obligations to remove extra planes and reorganize to compete more effectively.

Mesa’s Freedom Airlines unit is continuing normal operations with no impact on Delta customers. Freedom operates 22 Embraer 145 aircraft for Delta Connection, about 3% of the Delta Connection fleet.

Mesa’s flying agreement with Delta was in jeopardy because of non-performance. Last July a federal court upheld a lower court’s preliminary injunction that ruled that Delta could not immediately terminate the agreement and returned the matter to district court. Delta believes it is entitled to terminate the contract with Freedom because of performance.

“Delta will continue to seek a resolution with Mesa that is beneficial for our customers,” Delta said in a statement. “Delta customers rely on Delta Connection carriers for outstanding service and we will continue to insist on a high level of performance from our partners.”

In November United Airlines did not extend a deal under which Mesa operated regional jet service for the carrier, according to BusinessWeek.

Assuming this was written by Delta (which I can;t tell), that's probably intentional wording. Present tense "Delta believes it is entitled to terminate the contract"...

Selective Bankruptcy
 

Didn't Lorenzo BK only part of his empire, after first siphoning assets and cash into the part that he kept out of BK? Maybe the law has changed since then.

Well..... Delta is now formally able to terminate the contract based on the fact that Mesa has filed for Bankruptcy. Delta can terminate at its leisure without any argument from Mesa as the language is very clear......."Delta: The agreements may be subject to early termination under various circumstances including: If either Delta or we file for bankruptcy, reorganization or similar action"......it will be interesting to see how quickly this happens.

Doubl post

HAHA.. even if he does pay Mesa Pilots with "IOU's" :cool:

Lorenzo had several completely different corporations that were buying and selling "assets"

Works something like this (Airline names picked out of the air): Continental sells debt obligations to Delta for 10 757s.Even though the notes are for $50 billion in debt and the 757s are only worth, say $1 billion, it's a perfectly legal transaction. Next step Delta who no longer has airplanes and riddled with debt from Continental declares bankruptcy. This leaves Continental free of debt and all the assets of Delta.

Even though Continental and Delta were two completely separate organizations, Lorenzo would have people on the boards and executive level management of both companies making it happen. In the process Lorenzo and his cronies would syphon money through these transactions and make some corporations stronger and destroy others my moving these debts and assets around. So even though they are legally separate organizations they had one guy pulling the strings and making these crazy deals and destroying what were once perfectly good airlines.

Why file bankruptcy when you know you will be giving yourself to Delta on a silver platter? What is he talking about 70 million? The contract is clear. I know they have some pretty smart people giving them advice but it doesn't make any sense. Unless Mesa is completely desperate and out of options and are taking their chances with BK nonetheless. There did seem a hint BS on that letter!!

Thanks............................................ ..

I am guessing. Mesa is playing a major gamble here it was very clear in one of JOs CEOs update is that the lessers have run out of patients and demanded JO to pay up in cash at least thsts how i feel that happened when JO met them in NY a while back (In relations to the UAX CRJ200s which are being withdrawn.)

Well we won't know until it's over but perhaps they simply don't have any cash left on hand? I would imagine they would have rather gone through Ch. 11 a long time ago but with the risk of all their major partners pulling stakes and running they were forced to continue operations. At this point they might not even have enough cash to continue handing out paychecks and need bankruptcy protection to halt payments on just about everything else just to keep the lights on.

Bankruptcy
 

I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!

Bankruptcy Song

...lessors have run out of patience...

I didn't SAY it I Declared it:rolleyes:..... LOL

Thanks for the laugh....

This is what Skywest wanted to do with XJT, get their foot in the door with CAL. The difference is that USAirways is no CAL. If this does happen, I doubt they will be as nice to the MAG pilots as they were to the XJT pilots.

It could be a good thing but I highly doubt SKW management will structure it in a way in which it would be, judging from past practice.

A third airline to put on their holding company.

Lets hope USAPA can win this battle.

Like vultures?

I wouldn't exclude anything from the realm of possibility. I certainly think the pilots would fare as well as can be considering the circumstances. For example, when DAL filed suit to get out of the Freedom flying, XJT was currently doing DAL flying out of LAX and with the slight possibility that XJT might end up with some of that Freedom flying, some MEC members were already on board with giving those MAG pilots seniority and longevity on the XJT seniority list while doing that flying.

They'll buy their assets and that's about it unfortunately for the pilots. Like Tony said, you may get preferential interviews...probably after the UAL and ASA furloughs and the SKW pool pilots.

From what I've heard, Delta dragged Comair into shamkruptcy so the creditors couldn't confiscate (the still profitable) Comair as payment.

If go! isn't included in bankruptcy protection, then it isn't protected from seizure by creditors.

If JO wanted to keep go! as a part of MAG, he should have included it in the Ch11 filing.

I fly planes for a living so I could be very wrong about this.

No, this won't be a third airline.... it will be a purchase of assets. Whatever flying done for UAL, USA, or DAL, if any, will be through SkW.

There won't be any parts to identify as Mesa, any more than there are parts of Sun Aire that SkW bought many moons ago.

SkW, I believe, did get approval for a two week training course to make Mesa pilots who are previously rated on same equipment to be SkW pilots.

The turn around can be very, very fast. Might take longer to paint the planes.

Maybe in JO's dreams.... the bankruptcy court will tell Mesa what is "included".

Huh? BK starts the moment an entity files its petition with the court.

MESA IS BANKRUPT.

Whether they are reorganized or liquidated is now up to a court, not JO.

Yeah, I wasn't sure if a separate certificate was required because of scope issues.

But why Skywest and not ASA?

There may be some advantage with scope... I have no idea. But I very seriously doubt that Mesa brand will be on anything SkW does. Even if there was some small advantage in one or more areas.

As to SkW vs ASA, I'm referring to SkW, Inc. I have no idea if there are plans to grow the ASA brand, or not.

EDIT: SkW Airlines has the reduced training agreement, not ASA. So, that part of my discussion was about OO.

3rd UPDATE: Mesa Air Files For Bankruptcy, Plans To Cut Jets

Looks like everything is peachy in PHX, they plan on getting out of BK within a few months. Again why is no one mentioning the fact that the majors have the option to get rid of Mesa? I guess they think it won't happen? And they keep saying Mesa is owed 70 million from DAL. Strange.

Having a third airline under the holding company doesn't mean having aircraft with the Mesa brand.

And yeah, I figured that Skywest Airlines got this training approval from the FAA and was hoping for an explanation as to why it wasn't ASA instead?

Maybe I've missed it, but what about Delta scope? 76 seats last time I checked. I might be wrong, but aren't the Mesa CRJ900s at 86 seats? How could Skywest or any other Delta Connection carrier fly those airplanes without jeopardizing their codeshare?

There are still quite a few of us that are "parts of Sun Aire" that are still around!

Bankruptcy Proceedings
 

Mesa Employees,

Judge Martin Glenn today approved the standard Chapter 11 requests to continue operating and make payroll, etc.

For those interested you can follow the bankruptcy proceedings here:

UNITED STATES BANKRUPTCY COURT
Southern District of New York

To see the most recent documents you can register with PACER (Public Access Court Electronic Records) at .08 cents per document page.

Or you can wait until the Court publishes their Most Recent Written Opinions which may take some time.

Good Luck All,

winglet

Best God damn post in the thread so far!

Thanks!

-The Duke

Does Mesa weld their seats to the airframe? Was this a serious question?:confused:

No, that would have to be the thread title

Irony is sweet!

Z

That is not correct. Mesa has filed for chapter 11 protection, not chapter 7 bankruptsy. All it means that if things continue unchanged from here on out, then mesa will run out of money. Perhaps it's semantics, but it is nonetheless an important distinction.

Actually Oskeewowow has a valid point...

Scope clauses often set their limits based on CERTIFIED seating/MGTOW...so you can be limited by the max number of seats the aircraft is certified for (90 in this case) regardless of how many are actually installed.

This is actually smart scope...the revenue potential of the airplane is linked to MGTOW, since cargo is a significant money-maker for pax airlines. Fewer installed seats = more cargo. Also fewer seats usually means premium seats = more revenue.

Ever heard of the CRJ 705? It's a 900 that bombardier certified with the FAA for fewer than 90 seats (77?)...this was a paperwork drill done solely for the purpose of getting around a certain airline's scope clause.

But in DAL's case, I think installed seats is what counts, so the MAG 900's could be reconfigured for SKW...if DCI is not already at the scope max for that plane.

OMFG....the correct word is BANKRUPTCY