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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
(Post 738662)
That is not correct. Mesa has filed for chapter 11 protection, not chapter 7 bankruptsy. All it means that if things continue unchanged from here on out, then mesa will run out of money. Perhaps it's semantics, but it is nonetheless an important distinction.
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Originally Posted by dashtrash300
(Post 738658)
No, that would have to be the thread title
Is that a bankruptcy pie filling or tooth filling or filling station? Dashtrash300, during your future endeavors in life may you be given the same consideration you have demonstrated here. winglet |
Originally Posted by boilerpilot
(Post 738662)
That is not correct. Mesa has filed for chapter 11 protection, not chapter 7 bankruptsy. All it means that if things continue unchanged from here on out, then mesa will run out of money. Perhaps it's semantics, but it is nonetheless an important distinction.
See below. The article mostly relates to personal bankruptcy, but it all falls under the same code of federal regulations. The end discusses chapters 11 and 12. What Is Bankruptcy? - Free Legal Information - Nolo What Is Bankruptcy? Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 bankruptcy basics. Bankruptcy is a federal court process designed to help consumers and businesses eliminate their debts or repay them under the protection of the bankruptcy court. Bankruptcies can generally be described as "liquidations" or "reorganizations." Chapter 7 bankruptcy is the liquidation variety: If you own property that isn't exempt under your state's laws, it may be taken and sold ("liquidated") to pay back some of your debt. Chapter 13 bankruptcy is the most common type of "reorganization" bankruptcy for consumers: You get to keep all of your property, but you must make monthly payments over three to five years to repay all or some of your debt. Both kinds of bankruptcy have numerous rules -- and exceptions to those rules -- about what kinds of debts are covered, who can file, and what property you can and cannot keep. Chapter 7 Bankruptcy Chapter 7 bankruptcy can be filed by individuals (called a "consumer" Chapter 7 bankruptcy) or businesses (called a "business" Chapter 7 bankruptcy). A Chapter 7 bankruptcy typically lasts three to six months. Property liquidation. In Chapter 7 bankruptcy, some of your property may be sold to pay down your debt. In return, most or all of your unsecured debts (that is, debts for which collateral has not been pledged) will be erased. You get to keep any property that is classified as exempt under the state or federal laws available to you (such as your clothes, car, and household furnishings). Many debtors who file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy are pleased to learn that all of their property is exempt. Secured debt. If you owe money on a secured debt (for example, a car loan for which the car is pledged as a guarantee of payment), you have a choice of allowing the creditor to repossess the property; continuing your payments on the property under the contract (if the lender agrees); or paying the creditor a lump sum amount equal to the current replacement value of the property. Some types of secured debts can be eliminated in Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Eligibility for Chapter 7. Not everyone can file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. For example, if your disposable income is sufficient to fund a Chapter 13 repayment plan -- after subtracting certain allowed expenses and monthly payments for certain debts -- you won't be allowed to use Chapter 7 bankruptcy. For more on this and other requirements, see Chapter 7 Bankruptcy -- Who Can File? Bankruptcy doesn't work on some kinds of debts. Though bankruptcy can eliminate many kinds of debts, such as credit card debt, medical bills, and unsecured loans, there are many types of debts, including child support and spousal support obligations and most tax debts, that cannot be wiped out in bankruptcy. For more information, see What Bankruptcy Can and Cannot Do. For more information on Chapter 7 bankruptcy, see How to File for Chapter 7 Bankruptcy, by Stephen Elias, Albin Renauer, and Robin Leonard (Nolo). Chapter 13 Bankruptcy Chapter 13 bankruptcy is also known as "wage earner" bankruptcy because, in order to file for Chapter 13, you must have a reliable source of income that you can use to repay some portion of your debt. Repayment. When you file for Chapter 13 bankruptcy, you must propose a repayment plan that details how you are going to pay back your debts over the next three to five years. The minimum amount you'll have to repay depends on how much you earn, how much you owe, and how much your unsecured creditors would have received if you'd filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Debt limits. Your debts must be within limits set by the federal government: Currently, you may not have more than $1,010, 650 in secured debt and $336,900 in unsecured debt. Secured debts. If you have secured debts, Chapter 13 gives you an option to make up missed payments to avoid repossession or foreclosure. You can include these past due amounts in your repayment plan and make them up over time. For more information on Chapter 13 bankruptcy, see Chapter 13 Bankruptcy: Repay Your Debts, by Stephen Elias and Robin Leonard. Other Types of Reorganization Bankruptcy In addition to Chapter 13 bankruptcy, there are two other types of reorganization bankruptcy: Chapter 11 and Chapter 12. Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Chapter 11 is typically used by financially struggling businesses to reorganize their affairs. It is also available to individuals, but because Chapter 11 bankruptcy is expensive and time-consuming, it is generally used only by those whose debts exceed the Chapter 13 bankruptcy limits (rare) or who own substantial nonexempt assets (such as several pieces of real estate). If you are considering Chapter 11 bankruptcy, you'll need to talk to a lawyer. Chapter 12 bankruptcy. Chapter 12 is almost identical to Chapter 13 bankruptcy. But to be eligible for Chapter 12 bankruptcy, at least 80% of your debts must arise from the operation of a family farm. Chapter 12 bankruptcy has higher debt ceilings to accommodate the large debts that may come with operating a farm, and it offers the debtor more power to eliminate certain types of liens. Very few people use Chapter 12 bankruptcy; if you want to join their ranks, you should consult with a lawyer. |
Bankruptcy Basics
Here is a good explanation of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy from the Federal Judiciary:
Bankruptcy Basics winglet |
Let the forensic accounts do their work.
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Mesa doesn't fly CRJ900s for Delta, when they did they were NGs that had 2 cabins (first/economy) with 76 seats.
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Originally Posted by Theonemarine
(Post 738147)
I think AWAC is the only operator that could afford the -900's
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Originally Posted by dashtrash300
(Post 738658)
No, that would have to be the thread title
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Originally Posted by Drums4life
(Post 738256)
please please please please SkyWest buy us! please!
The very best of luck to my Mesa friends and their families. The Dash Whisperer |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 738667)
Ever heard of the CRJ 705? It's a 900 that bombardier certified with the FAA for fewer than 90 seats (77?)...this was a paperwork drill done solely for the purpose of getting around a certain airline's scope clause.
The same paperwork shuffle for a CRJ-900-ER and -LR. Same engines, same fuel, just reduced weights on the -ER. My company operates a 75 total seat configuration -900-ER like this one (btw, scope has nothing to do with our configuration): "The Series 705 is based on the CRJ900, with a business class and a reduced maximum seating capacity to allow operation with regional airlines. Some regional airlines have contracts with their major airlines that limit the maximum passenger capacity of aircraft they operate. Air Canada Jazz was the launch customer for this aircraft in 2005 with 10 executive (business) class and 65 economy seats. The FAA Type Certificate designation of the CRJ705 is the CL-600-2D15. Air Canada Jazz operates 16 Series 705 aircraft." |
Originally Posted by Oskeewowow
(Post 738630)
Maybe I've missed it, but what about Delta scope? 76 seats last time I checked. I might be wrong, but aren't the Mesa CRJ900s at 86 seats? How could Skywest or any other Delta Connection carrier fly those airplanes without jeopardizing their codeshare?
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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
(Post 738662)
That is not correct. Mesa has filed for chapter 11 protection, not chapter 7 bankruptsy. All it means that if things continue unchanged from here on out, then mesa will run out of money. Perhaps it's semantics, but it is nonetheless an important distinction.
We don't agree. Sorry. What Mesa has asked the court: Chapter 11 reorganization, Go! exempt for bankruptcy, $70 million from Delta, Love, Peace and continued work out of its pilots, etc, etc, etc. What they're going to get??? I predict not everything they ask for. If you don't think chapter 7 is on the table, well.... let's just say, again, I don't agree. |
Originally Posted by FlyFishin
(Post 738013)
And they filed on the anniversary of FlyI's last flight.
Originally Posted by edznaz
(Post 738659)
Irony is sweet!
N654BR |
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 738764)
Chautauqua does it by calling it Republic. Republic does it by calling it Shuttle. Mesa does it by calling it Freedom. I'm sure SkyWest could figure out a way.
All those angles are "old school". The new code has been broken !!!! It's called "code share". |
Nobody has mentioned that Mesa's 900s could be in the plans for ASA/SkyWest's Vietnamese venture, since there supposedly aren't any on the market currently.
Best of luck to all the Mesa pilots. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 738667)
But in DAL's case, I think installed seats is what counts, so the MAG 900's could be reconfigured for SKW...if DCI is not already at the scope max for that plane.
1-DAL scope is based on the certified weight of the airplane, not number of seats installed. Compass has an exemption for 36 planes at the higher weight though they are at their limit. 2-DCI is at the limit for 76 seat aircraft. Actually, they went over, but in the grievance, by allowing them to keep the overage, DALPA was given the right to determine how many 76 seat planes are in the count, not management. This is an important distinction when you are arguing about what consititutes a spare aircraft. Everyone seems to think that when Delta finally dumps MAG that their regional will pick up the flying. What they are failing to realize is that management doesn't want to transfer the flying, they want the block hours to disappear completely, as in a reduction in block hours. |
I was actually betting people would see US Air slide a little flying around. I know they are over their limit due to scope but by how many. Mesa has 40? of them over there. I wouldn't be surprised if a few planes were spread around.
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Originally Posted by boilerpilot
(Post 738662)
That is not correct. Mesa has filed for chapter 11 protection, not chapter 7 bankruptsy. All it means that if things continue unchanged from here on out, then mesa will run out of money. Perhaps it's semantics, but it is nonetheless an important distinction.
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Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
(Post 738799)
I was actually betting people would see US Air slide a little flying around. I know they are over their limit due to scope but by how many. Mesa has 40? of them over there. I wouldn't be surprised if a few planes were spread around.
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Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
(Post 738779)
Everyone seems to think that when Delta finally dumps MAG that their regional will pick up the flying. What they are failing to realize is that management doesn't want to transfer the flying, they want the block hours to disappear completely, as in a reduction in block hours.
US 900 flying might be up for grabs. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 738811)
That is my assessment for the DAL flying as well.
US 900 flying might be up for grabs. |
A few days ago, there was some more mumbling about the company wanting to try negotiating 900 payrates again at PSA. I thought it sounded ridiculous, but after this Mesa BK announcement, it may not be after all.
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To all MAG employees!!!
On behalf of most of us here on APC, I wish you and your families the best outcome and you now face the uncertain. You have held this company together and your hard work has got you all this far.... No matter the out come you will always be in our thoughts and prayers. Most here do not bash you, but J.O I hope that his actions will catch up with him.
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People have some restraint. It only took a day to start the plans of how they're going to divide the flying and by specific airplanes and companies as well. We started at 6 am and it's probably going into the night. They would have filed Chpt7 a long time ago, UA and Airways will have contingency plans but right now there is no reason to expect anything other than normal operations especially since Mesa will probably come out stronger and more competitive to underbid Skywest and RAh. MESA is not going anywhere.
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38 9s, 11 2s, 6 Dashes for Airways. |
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 738829)
People have some restraint. It only took a day to start the plans of how they're going to divide the flying and by specific airplanes and companies as well. We started at 6 am and it's probably going into the night. They would have filed Chpt7 a long time ago, UA and Airways will have contingency plans but right now there is no reason to expect anything other than normal operations especially since Mesa will probably come out stronger and more competitive to underbid Skywest and RAh. MESA is not going anywhere.
Delta, US Air and United have all indicated that a future (or a significantly reduced future) with Mesa is not in their interest. How does a contract carrier stay in business without a contract? I don't doubt that they may hang on for little while longer but the flying that I see them hanging on to will be irrelevant for the number of employees that need a job. |
The actual contracts are not up for a couple of more years. Right now Mesa will not be replaced unless they liquidate and who knows what after they emerge out of bankruptcy.
1. It's not Mesa's fault that you went there when you knew how bad it was, now that you're gone you want to see it in liquidation. 2. Even if Mesa were gone tomorrow there will be PLENTY of bottom feeders replacing them with TONS of cash. This industry does not need another bankrupt airline and 1500 pilots on the street. Read some of the posts by Skywest and US wholly owned pilots. It's just amazing the level of mentality in this industry of; death to MESA so that I can get more dirty RJs for my crappy company for a few more years while I get my time. |
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 738847)
1. It's not Mesa's fault that you went there when you knew how bad it was, now that you're gone you want to see it in liquidation.
2. Even if Mesa were gone tomorrow there will be PLENTY of bottom feeders replacing them with TONS of cash. |
You fly for Republics You fly for Republics.
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Mesa helped bail AmericaWest (US Airways) out in the 1990s. Now as we have entered Chapter 11, we can only hope that we are as fortunate as they were. I think the operating climate now is so much more difficult, so I'm cautiously optimistic but certainly mentally and emotionally prepared if the bottom drops out. Mesa has been a great run for me, I have no regrets and wouldn't change it for a thing. The flying on the Dash 8 has been unforgettable. Looking through my logbook, I have nearly 1,000 landings in Aspen, Colorado alone. So the mountain flying has been a rewarding aspect of the job and I think it has taught me about certain aspects of flying that I wouldn't have learned elsewhere.
As far as our flying w/ Airways goes, what a sad mess that has turned into. America West used to be such a great little airline that we used to regional feed with. We were their only real regional feeder for years and I like to think we played at least some part in their success as an airline. We seemed to grow and prosper together at the same time. Then they purchased US Airways and became US Airways and the rest is a mess. Every airline that has come into contact w/ US Airways has been destroyed. As a matter of fact, the front page of the Arizona Republic profiled this after the merger was announced. That article has stuck with me because it was chillingly accurate in its forward-looking observations. Now significant portions of our business is with two struggling codeshare partners: United and Airways. Who knows what will happen with these two carriers. They too have had their experiences with Chapter 11 and still struggle today. Any carrier that buys an intact MAG, hopefully w/ significantly restructured/reduced debt, will be getting a smoking deal in my opinion. I actually think integrating our pilot group would be quite easy. There would be some challenges, but I think most would be gracious for the opportunity. In the mean-time, we'll just have to kick back and watch how it unfolds. It will be painful for most, but I intend to make it a learning experience as usual. At 32 years old, my gut feeling is that this won't be my last experience with Chapter 11 in my airline career. |
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 738850)
You fly for Republics You fly for Republics.
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Am I the only one having a hard time feeling sorry for anyone at Mesa? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish unemployment on anyone but you made the choice to work for a crappy company with subpar wages run by an egomaniac. Mesa undercut everyone else in the industry for years and now things have come full circle. Who I do feel sorry for are the wives/husbands and children of the pilots who somehow convinced themselves that working for Mesa would be a good thing.
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Originally Posted by JetFlyer06
(Post 738866)
Am I the only one having a hard time feeling sorry for anyone at Mesa? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish unemployment on anyone but you made the choice to work for a crappy company with subpar wages run by an egomaniac. Mesa undercut everyone else in the industry for years and now things have come full circle. Who I do feel sorry for are the wives/husbands and children of the pilots who somehow convinced themselves that working for Mesa would be a good thing.
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Originally Posted by JetFlyer06
(Post 738866)
Am I the only one having a hard time feeling sorry for anyone at Mesa? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish unemployment on anyone but you made the choice to work for a crappy company with subpar wages run by an egomaniac. Mesa undercut everyone else in the industry for years and now things have come full circle. Who I do feel sorry for are the wives/husbands and children of the pilots who somehow convinced themselves that working for Mesa would be a good thing.
I see it from another angle. What if, at the time, Mesa was the only airline a pilot could get hired. In an industry where timing is everything, people have to weigh the options and take the best path available. We rarely have the chance to chose the ideal. I try and put myself in the position that a few of my friends faced in 2005. These are people with lives, families and bills to pay. Despite the negatives, they had a chance to start their career and they took it and I don't blame them one bit. I may live in a feel good and fruity world, but I think pilots should never hate pilots. But, the reality is, we are self-centered greedy bastards who prize the fall of our brothers for the glory of ourselves. |
Originally Posted by mccube5
(Post 738863)
It's Republic, not a plural word. And please don't compare Republic to Go Jets. Neither is helping anything, but they are in 2 completely different leagues.
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Originally Posted by JetFlyer06
(Post 738866)
Am I the only one having a hard time feeling sorry for anyone at Mesa? Don't get me wrong, I don't wish unemployment on anyone but you made the choice to work for a crappy company with subpar wages run by an egomaniac. Mesa undercut everyone else in the industry for years and now things have come full circle. Who I do feel sorry for are the wives/husbands and children of the pilots who somehow convinced themselves that working for Mesa would be a good thing.
Jet, Those are some heavy words. With that said what options did folks have after the hiring boom stopped? Consider the seniority and not wanting to be at the bottom again playing in as well...The aforementioned spouses and kids are reason some stayed and put up a fight, as they didn't want to move them YET again... Maybe your lucky? As thats about all you have on your side because this could happen to any of us in the game, at any time. Your looking at roughly 1200 guys/ladies on the street.... Easy to say when out looking in, Now is not the time to feel superior imho... |
Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 738850)
You fly for Republics You fly for Republics.
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Originally Posted by AirWillie
(Post 738847)
2. Even if Mesa were gone tomorrow there will be PLENTY of bottom feeders replacing them with TONS of cash. This is an untrue statement. Contract flying at places like Mesa had a purpose post-9/11 for management of the major carriers. JO, BB and the like, were able to sell a bill of goods to investors that they can't do today because contract flying is going away. Finding investors for the aviation sector, in today's economy and post Madoff / AIG (insert screw job of the week), are very, very rare. Investing in the right Major is a much smarter bet (and I'm not sure ANY airline sector investment is too smart) and those with big bucks know that well. |
To all my friends at Mesa, I wish you the best in these tough times. I think Mesa will be around well into the future, however with a much smaller pilot group. For those of us that will lose our jobs to this, it will indeed be hard to find any job in this economy.
To those with your kind words, thank you. It is true professionalism to care about all in this industry and to understand that we are our only hope. To the vultures, be careful what you wish for. 1200 more pilots on the street, some that will take your job because they lost theirs. |
I find it interesting that some of you think that going to Mesa when you had no other options is ok but heaven forbid anyone go to GoJet when they are out of options. Its either ok in both situations or not ok in either.
My thoughts and best wishes go out to the pilots of Mesa. |
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