Airline Pilot Central Forums - Mesa CEO blames Captains, unions for low pay

Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)

- Mesa Airlines (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mesa-airlines/)

- - Mesa CEO blames Captains, unions for low pay (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mesa-airlines/81530-mesa-ceo-blames-captains-unions-low-pay.html)

Mesa CEO blames Captains, unions for low pay

Mesa?s Ornstein Expresses ?Disgust? with Washington | Aviation International News

Some highlights from the RAA convention in St Louis and specifically from Mesa CEO:

- Blames congress for "One Level of Safety" requring 135 operators to comply with 121 maintenance.

- Blames union and greediness of Captains for low-entry level pay and claims FOs at Mesa average $45,000 a year.

- Claims "race to the bottom" is offensive to him and not true

- Says young pilots are going to Europe to fly right seat in an A320 with 250 hours and asks if it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for us.

Discuss

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBreezy (Post 1643107)

This guy shifting the blame to the unions and Captains is offensive to me. Mesa is very involved in the 'race to the bottom' and its not the crews faults, its Ornstein's fault. Look at what his hiring practices have been reduced to, a phone call, so he can staff his insanely low bid for United 175.

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/b...0220246975.jpg

Yes, let's listen to a convicted felon who has exploited his labor force for years rail on "income equality" and how making commuters meet 121 standards put Dornier, Shorts and British Aerospace out of business.

Because the Do328/328JET, 330/360, Jetstream 31/41, B146 and ATP were airframes highly desirable during the explosive growth of "commuters" in the 90s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CBreezy (Post 1643107)

Mesa?s Ornstein Expresses ?Disgust? with Washington | Aviation International News

Some highlights from the RAA convention in St Louis and specifically from Mesa CEO:

- Blames congress for "One Level of Safety" requiring 135 operators to comply with 121 maintenance.

- Blames union and greediness of Captains for low-entry level pay and claims FOs at Mesa average $45,000 a year.

- Claims "race to the bottom" is offensive to him and not true

- Says young pilots are going to Europe to fly right seat in an A320 with 250 hours and asks if it is good enough for them, why isn't it good enough for us.

Discuss

Is this thing just a rant fest for them. Are members of Congress there, or are they trying to work out a plan for their lobbyists?

Yes, those greedy unions, actually demanding to be paid as much as a copier repairman.

How senior is the avg FO at Mesa to make 45k? And that is till laughable wage for highly skilled and responsible labor.

250 hr FO's in Europe are called 2nd officers and just occupy the seat during cruise. Is he willing to hire somebody to do just that on a 1.5 hr flight? Those inexperienced crew sent AF 447 to the bottom of the South Atlantic when they failed to respond correctly to a blocked pitot tube.

He offends my intelligence with his crap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoilerUP (Post 1643123)

unfortunately, in the current economic environment, the public only sees "CEO" and "congress interfering with ability to make money." They see lost jobs, less access to their home airport and stock market losses. Very few care about his history as a felon or the details behind the older airframes going away.

Absolutely. "Race to the bottom" is common labor rhetoric, and its existence is dubious. Read about it. We can never have a meaningful conversation about pay until "race to the bottom" is erased from the discussion.

Mesa FOs, or any other regional FO for that matter, will never be paid more with crusty old lifers at the top demanding their $120k. Bring wages at the top end down, and raise them at the bottom. If you choose to make a career out of flying for a regional airline, I shouldn't have to suffer the consequences.

Orstein is right when he says he's paying enough "as long as they keep showing up".

Come to Mesa. Fly your a$$ off, then GTFO as quickly as possible.

In regard to the weird CBreezy Mesa bashing: No explanation....

Again, GlobalExpress ( the pilot and APC member) infuses a little dose of reality in the comments section of this article. Global, I appreciate your tenacity in getting the word out and fighting back against the wave of propaganda coming from the likes of Ornstein.

Quote:

He-He. Ornstein is "disgusted" with the race to the bottom? Is he serious? Guys like him and the way they have treated their pilots ARE the reason why young people and career changers don't want to become pilots anymore. For example, Ornstein created an airline called Freedom Air several years back? Why? So he could whipsaw Mesa Air pilot groups againt Freedom pilots in order to drive down pilot wages- wages that were already so low many of his First Officers could qualify for food stamps. If you read the pilot/aviaiton forums, Ornstein is allegedly one of the most depised regional airline CEOs out there.

And Johnnie O, it's not for your unions or your Captains to fix the problem you and your ilk have created. When there was a nursing shortage in the mid 2000's, hospital administrators didn't go around asking physicians to take pay cuts in order to fund higher nursing pay. They recognized reality (unlike you), and took the appropriate steps to attract new nurses into the industry. They raised pay. They gave them signing bonuses. They gave them perks like relocation assistance. What has the regional airline industry done besides cry in the press about their lack of ability to attract and retain pilots? Well, pretty much nothing. Entry level regional airline pay still hovers in the low 20's. A FEW regional airlines offer some meager signing bonuses, but it isn't enough. Stop blaming everyone else for the problem YOU created. Pay pilots a living wage, and they will come, eventually.

And Johnnie O., if you want to talk about "income disparity," let's talk income disparity. There are WAY too many links to post here, but Google "CEO income equality" and then get back to me about THAT topic. Talk about being out of touch. So yeah, you're right. Us pilots are not concerned about the same "income equality" that you CEOs are. You want to attract entry level First Officers? Don't look for other employees to subsidize the solution to YOUR problem. Pay a market wage, just lke every other industry has to do. Or perhaps examine the paychecks of you and your senior executives and start making cuts there.

The One Level of Safety rules did not kill turboprops. The consumer did. Passengers DO NOT LIKE FLYING ON TURBOPROP AIRCRAFT. You know that. I know that. That's what killed those types of aircraft. That's why Mesa doesn't fly turboprop aircraft. That transition started with Comair's initial success with the 50 seat RJ in the early 90's and it went on from there as THE CONSUMER drove the change from turboprops to turbojets. So yeah, some of those manufacturers were hurt in the transition from turboprop to turbojets, but from those failed companies came new ones. So Pratt, Garrett, and Honeywell make products for turbojets now instead of turboprops. The good companies adapt to change. The bad ones fail.

And BTW Johnnie O, it's NOT OK to have a 250 hour pilot in the seat of any passenger carrying aircraft. Just like it's not OK to replace you and your peer CEOs with the "best and the brightest" management school graduates with the ink still wet on their diplomas. Sure Mesa, for example, could save a TON of money by replacing you with a brand new, smart, college graduate, but that's probably not wise, right? No sane board is going to take a young, inexpericed yet "bright" management student and let him/her run a multi-million operation to save a few bucks on CEO compensation. Same rules apply when it comes to replacing placing people in SAFETY SENSITIVE POSITIONS like pilots. How is that difficult to understand? Again, a brand new, 250 hour pilot HAS NO BUSINESS in the cockpit of a US airliner just because a few foreign airlines use low-time pilots as "cruise" pilots (they don't do take-offs or landings) on widebody jets.

In conclusion, John, instead of whing on the mike at you and your peers' little get together, you should have been collectively been trying to COME UP WITH A PLAN to fix your pilot retention and attraction problems. Not complaining about federal air regulations. Not blaming unions for your pilot salary problems. You should have all gotten together and realized that hey, paying entry level pilots with six-figure debt less than what a fast food manager earns probably isn't a long term solution to the pilot retention problem you guys face.

Seems the comment made is more accurate than anything JO said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by block30 (Post 1643243)

Global's comment makes zero good points, shows a total lack of understanding of the issue and is embarrassing. And it starts with "he-he", which might as well say "what follows isn't worth reading".

Quote:

You should have all gotten together and realized that hey, paying entry level pilots with six-figure debt less than what a fast food manager earns probably isn't a long term solution to the pilot retention problem you guys face.

First of all, I have no dog in this fight.

That being said... it's not the airlines, Major, regional, or otherwise, faults that guys and gals have six figure debt. It's just not their problem. There's plenty of people applying for and able to do that job without that kind of ridiculous debt. Most of them are just older and paid as they flew or had Mommy and Daddy foot the bill.

Do I think regionals oughta pay more? Absolutely. But the argument used above that personal debt and bad life choices are somehow any employers problem is just idiotic.

That is all.

(I'll grab my flame shield now)