Colorado_Kid

I am a high school senior interested in military aviation, but have a few choices to make in the coming months. I was just awarded a 4-year Army ROTC scholarship and helicopter flight training scholarship to the University of North Dakota. This program is unique in the respect that the Army will pay for flight training during college. So when you graduate, they just send you to Ft. Rucker to complete the training on whatever particular aircraft you will fly. On the other hand, I will likely get an Air Force scholarship and am still waiting on the Navy (I applied pretty late). I am curious to know what experiences others have had with these programs, in particular the heicopter program at UND. I would appreciate any input.

BDGERJMN

CK,

Congrats on your opportunities. The decision you're about to make isn't one to take lightly at all and certainly one where you'll want to consider ALL of your options and solicit advice from those that have gone before you. Now that I have stated the obvious, I will tell you what I did.

I was in your shoes as well, could have gone to the USAFA or USNA and also had ROTC scholarships. I never considered the Army as I didn't want to fly helos specifically. The Air Force at the time(91-post Desert Storm) was very very competitive for flight slots out of ROTC(still is I'm sure). The idea of landing on a ship and operating from a ship was very appealing to me for a number of reasons. As for the choice to go to an academy or do the ROTC thing, that is purely a QOL issue while you're there. I chose to do the ROTC thing and live a college life rather than the military life 24/7 at one of the academies. I figured that the end result was the same(an active duty commission) and I may as well have alot of fun doing it. Thats not to say you can't have fun while at an academy, its just different. That being said the Academy folks have a huge network out there that is not to be taken for granted. As for the Navy QOL, its not bad. Sea time sucks, no getting around that, but being deployed right now is common to any service. I think if QOL in the military is what your looking for, then USAF by far has the rest of the services beat.

One of the things that I would tell you is this: If you're using the military flight time as a means to an end to get an airline gig, you might want to reconsider. With all of the budget cuts and the GWOT, you're time away from home is certainly going to be huge, and your flight time most likely won't be what those got 10-15 years ago. For example, 5 years ago, FA-18C pilots leaving their first tour most often always left with over 1000 hours in the jet. Now it's very common for that same pilot to leave with 600-700 in the same amount of time.

If you're interested in military aviation to serve your country, then by all means go for it. The people you will work with regardless of the service you choose, will be some of the most professional and dedicated people you will ever have the pleasure of serving with. The pay isn't all that bad and job security is non issue. No matter what aircraft you fly, from helos to jets to heavies, it's the people you work with who make it fun.

Again this only scratches the surface of what your about to embark on. Just remember, ultimately its about what YOU want to do and what YOU will be happiest doing. Hope this helps.

Safe flying,
Bdger

Colorado_Kid

Badger,
That's all good information that I will consider. I was unaware that flight time is down for military aviators and is definetely something to consider.

When you mentioned joining after college, did you mean OCS? I have heard some about the flight gurantees (BDCP or something like that), but you can never have too much information. I'm just curious what your experience was.

BDGERJMN

You can go to OCS after college or UPT in the AF with a guaranteed flight slot(Read: Don't sign on the dotted line until you see the slot guaranteed) My experience with aviation guarantees is very limited and dated to be honest. I know the Marine's for a time were giving out guarantees but not sure where that sits now. You're best bet for that information is to talk individually to Officer recruiters. Realize the information they are giving you now most likely won't be the same in 5 years when you're done with college.

As for the flight time reduction, it's like anything else, its cyclical, hard to say where it will be when you're done with flight school in roughly 6 years(4 for college and 2 for flight school). I do know this, there is a large move afoot both in the Navy and Air Force to replace flight hours with simulator time to cut costs. FWIW.

crewdawg

Colorad_Kid...I was in your shoes about 6 years ago. I almost joined the Army to become a helicopter pilot right out of high school (after a few credit hours of college), as warrant officer. Now I am no expert on army aviation but from what I had researched the warrant officers do most of the flying in the army. The officers do some flying but hours seem to be limited from what I understand. Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

I instead joined the Air National Guard and served for 5 years as a F-16 Crew chief while going to college. They paid for almost all of my schooling including all my costs to get up to my CFII. On top of that I was able to get hired by my unit and am currently in UPT.

I can't tell you much about the Navy. You don't really want to be on a boat with 5,000 other men do you? J/k BDGERJMN! Actually BDGERJMN maybe you could answer this question for me. What is the service commitment for a pilot in the navy? How many of those years will you spend in the jet? I ask because when I talked to people about joining the navy to fly they commented about how they had to spend a few years out the cockpit during their commitment.

As far the academies go I would look long and hard going to one of these. I have quite a few friends here in UPT class that went there and wish they would have gone elsewhere. My college years were the best years of my life and my academy friends look at them as the worst! One good thing is that if you go there and want a UPT slot then you are pretty much good to go, but living that kind of lifestyle wasn't for me. Also all your friends will be military people, not that that is bad but I enjoy have friends from outside the military. Finally to the most important thing about college.....chicks!! No offense but I bet the selection at the military academies are not that great . Even then what is it, 100 guys to 1 girl? At the college I went to it was 3 girls to every 1 guy (thanks to a nursing program)!

They seem very jealous of us who went to regular college’s and partied our a$$es off. I mean seriously, they expect you to go to class every day . Even on fridays!!!! . Go to a real college party it up and enjoy the four (or six) years college has to offer. You can do the ROTC thing or go OTS afterward. Or you could go to the "dark side" and joing the guard.

Feel free to PM with any questions.

schoolio

If you take the ROTC scholarship to UND, keep in mind that you'll be a commissioned officer. As a commissioned officer you are 1) a leader, 2) a soldier, 3) whatever staff job you are occupying at the time, and finally 4) an aviator.

I'll give you a brief rundown of my army career. Four-year ROTC scholarship (no flight training program), graduated, commissioned, flight school, then spent 2 years as a platoon leader. That's a long time to be a platoon leader, so in that respect I was very lucky. However, half of that time period was spent not flying, either due to not having aircraft or not being qualified (my unit upgraded from the AH-64A to the Longbow about 9 months after I arrived). So for all intents and purposes, I got a year as a flying platoon leader, which is about what all of my friends got. I spent 16 months after that as the battalion personnel/administrative officer, where I worked directly for the battalion commander and did paperwork all day. While in that job, I was lucky to fly once a week. I spent 6 months at the Captain's course/staff school, and then showed up at my next battalion. Only I got there 6 months early, so no flying there. That's when I really started working on my fixed wing flying (out of my own pocket). When the rest of the battalion showed up (to go through the Longbow conversion), I was assigned to be the logistics officer for the unit. After initial qualification, if I flew once every two weeks, I was lucky. I worked from 7am to 10pm at least 5 days a week (usually more) for a year, behind a desk in my windowless office, building spreadsheets and powerpoint briefings.

That last job is what compelled me to leave the army...well, that and an endless cycle of deployments. If I had stayed in, I would've commanded a flight company in combat, probably flown 800-1000 hours in a year of being deployed. But if you look at the life cycle of an army commissioned officer, you'll see that after company command comes at least another 6-10 years as a staff officer before you get to battalion command, the next time you're really flying again. And that's if you're lucky. Of course there are exceptions. I know people who, after their line company command, went back to Ft. Rucker and commanded the training company as an instructor pilot. One of my friends (we were platoon leaders together) went special ops aviation after his line company command, and he flies all over the world in black helicopters right now. There are other options out there if you go Army. Just know that the typical career path goes like this:

Lieutenant - platoon leader (1 yr), then company XO/battalion staff (2 yrs)
Captain - battalion staff (1 yr), captains course (6 mos), battalion staff (.5-1 yr), company command (1-1.5 yr), battalion or brigade staff (1-2 yr)
Major - Staff college (1 yr), battalion S3/XO (1-2 yrs), brigade staff (1-2 yrs)
Lt. Col - brigade/division staff (1-2 yrs), battalion command (2 yrs)

That takes you to 19 years. You've spent at best 4.5 years in operational flying positions.

If you're lucky enough to lead soldiers into combat, which is a very great honor, you can expect anywhere from 600-1000 hours for a 1 year tour.

Don't get me wrong - it sounds like I'm all down on the Army. I'm not. I gave it 7 years active duty, I was an Army brat, and I'm currently IRR (nondrilling reservist). I've been in the Army in one way or another since the day I was born. If it wasn't for the Army, I definitely wouldn't be where I am today. I've got a few more cliche's, but I'll spare you. The point I'm trying to make is that you need to fully investigate what you're getting into before you dive in. The scholarship is a great opportunity. Just make sure it's what you really want before you sign on the line.

41DS

I had a buddy that did that very program. He loved it, had a blast, but being an Army officer in aviation and not a warrent officer will cause you to eventually not fly that much. The warrent officers are the guys who fly their ass off in the Army not the Officers. My one buddy did the North Dakota program, another was an Apache pilot, both said the same thing. My recommendation is that if you want to fly more go with another branch. True the flying is less than before, but the type of flying you do is like nothing you'll do anywhere else. Some would prefer the Army aviation, others the Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard or Marines. Different strokes for different folks. Each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

BDGERJMN

[quote=crewdawg;124850]

I can't tell you much about the Navy. You don't really want to be on a boat with 5,000 other men do you? J/k BDGERJMN! Actually BDGERJMN maybe you could answer this question for me. What is the service commitment for a pilot in the navy? How many of those years will you spend in the jet? I ask because when I talked to people about joining the navy to fly they commented about how they had to spend a few years out the cockpit during their commitment. quote]

Crewdawg,

Yeah the boat can be a drag, not disputing that fact. As for the commitment, its 8 years from the time you get your wings unless its gone up and I'm not aware. So what does that mean? 10 years minimum. After you graduate from college, you will go to flight school for 2 years. If you get Jets(by that time JSF and superhornets will be your choices) you will go to the FRS for a year(7 to go) then 3 years in a deploying fleet squadron(4 to go) then 33 months on a flying shore(non deploying) tour......leaving you with 15 months left on your commitment. This is where the non flying comes in. After your shore tour, you will do what's called a disassociated sea tour. This could be on air wing staff, strike group staff, admiral's aide, etc. All of these jobs are 'non flying' jobs but are flying orders. Basically this means you still get to fly with a squadron or "Xhore" yourself out to alot of different squadrons to fly. Not everyone gets these jobs but its very likely you could get one. Dont' forget about the dreaded IA billet in there somewhere to support GWOT.

Bdger

Colorado_Kid

Definetely a lot to consider here. After reading a few of these posts, I spoke with a couple of Army pilots who went in as officers and they relayed stories similar to schoolio and confirmed what others have said. Thanks for your personal stories/advice.

Razor

My story:

Enlisted in the Army during high school and did a couple of years in the infantry in Berlin. After that I went to the University of Tennessee where I got an Air Force scholarship and a pilot training slot. After pilot training I stayed on as a T-37 IP for my first tour then I did a couple of tours in the E-3 AWACS before coming to the U-2 program in '98. I retire as a major at the end of the year having spent 18 years in the Air Force, all of it in the cockpit. I passed on the offer of a staff tour and I never got my masters degree so it was no suprise when I didn't get promoted to Lt Col. I chose to stay in the cockpit and fly which was easy being a U-2 pilot because we are always short of pilots. I've had fun and would recommend being an officer rather than enlisted and Air Force rather than Army.