Navy pipeline selection help
01-04-2018, 11:22 AM
#21
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by Otterbox
You’re insane if you think any non tacair community is gonna be a cake walk and require less dedication... what other communities lack in required dedication to flying skills like tacair they make up for in required dedication to BS busy work, duty and ground jobs.
Your question has already been answered. Fly jets to be an airline guy... The VQ(T) community sucks QOL wise (I know pilots who would have beerios in the mornings on their day off just so when they got called for another tornado escape det they could tell OPS they already started drinking and wouldn’t be available) but hey you’ll get a 707 type rating...
VP life you’ll end your 8 year commitment on a 2 year non flying boat tour that they won’t let you out of because they don’t want you to leave flight current. Same with helo dudes also... and also VQ.
Sounds like you want to fly helos more than E6s... go for it.
Whatever you ultimately end up putting down on your selection card, don’t put down things because you think life will be easy and you’ll have a high QOL. You won’t, and you’ll be sorry you ended up where you were because reality will be vastly different than what your imagining.
Your question has already been answered. Fly jets to be an airline guy... The VQ(T) community sucks QOL wise (I know pilots who would have beerios in the mornings on their day off just so when they got called for another tornado escape det they could tell OPS they already started drinking and wouldn’t be available) but hey you’ll get a 707 type rating...
VP life you’ll end your 8 year commitment on a 2 year non flying boat tour that they won’t let you out of because they don’t want you to leave flight current. Same with helo dudes also... and also VQ.
Sounds like you want to fly helos more than E6s... go for it.
Whatever you ultimately end up putting down on your selection card, don’t put down things because you think life will be easy and you’ll have a high QOL. You won’t, and you’ll be sorry you ended up where you were because reality will be vastly different than what your imagining.
Not dead set on helos, hence the post. Why do you say QOL is bad for E6s?
01-04-2018, 11:23 AM
#22
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by FlewNavy
Your time away from home during workups will be the same regardless of if you are a west/east coast VFA or VAQ. Workups are done in Fallon, NV which isn't exactly "local" to Oceana, Lemoore or Whidbey. All are fine places to raise children for the 3-4 years that you will be there. Spouses may disagree with that statement but attitude is everything. I would personally take Lemoore because I love the mountains and the flying on the west coast is superior.
My TACAIR friends are getting multiple CJOs and many of them their first choice. Even more significant was my TACAIR coworker that applied to exactly 1 airline...and got hired while being non-current (UPS). My helo friends are at the regionals. My P8/E6 friends have all gotten on with a legacy or other major LCC/Cargo directly but most have not had multiple CJOs. TACAIR is universally recognized as a harder path and irregardless of whether it has any analogous prediction on a pilots performance at an airline it does seem to make it a more marketable transition provided you have acquired enough hours. 1500 TACAIR hours seems to be the sweet spot.
There will still be airlines in 8-10 years but they may not be looking for competitive applicants. I went through primary/advanced before 9/11 and all the IPs were talking airlines etc. All of my IPs except those hired by SWA were furloughed multiple times. The SNAs all wanted P3s because they wanted the shortest commitment at the time and their obligations all ended during the age 65 rule implementation. Most went into business/contracting instead. You very well could be facing furloughs or Age 67+ when the time comes for you to leave the Navy and you will be on the back end of the retirement wave.
P3/P8 guys all say they would hate being on the boat. Mostly I think that is because they are in squadrons with 70-80 folks and they never truly get to know each other. What makes the boat tolerable is #1 the flying and #2 the 10-12 other JO's that you will spend most of your time with.
I say go pick the mission that most interests you if it is available and worry about the airlines in about 5-6 years. Your enjoyment/fulfillment of your career will primarily be based on the O4/O5 leadership that you are exposed to during your first two tours and not really about the aircraft that you fly. Make sure your wife is onboard with any decisions you make. Spouses groups are far more tight knit in VFA/Helos but ultimately that is up to the COs spouse.
Also - understand this very clearly - the Navy typically does not send its best and brightest fixed wing pilots to teach at the VTs. Top performers are usually teaching at the FRS and Weapons Schools or going to test squadrons. Most at the VTs are there because they want out of the Navy and they want to stay flying during their shore tour and it was the only opportunity. Not ALL...but most/many. So the opinions that you are getting from IPs may be jaded.
Good luck with your decision...you are lucky to have that opportunity to make it!
Cheers,
FW
My TACAIR friends are getting multiple CJOs and many of them their first choice. Even more significant was my TACAIR coworker that applied to exactly 1 airline...and got hired while being non-current (UPS). My helo friends are at the regionals. My P8/E6 friends have all gotten on with a legacy or other major LCC/Cargo directly but most have not had multiple CJOs. TACAIR is universally recognized as a harder path and irregardless of whether it has any analogous prediction on a pilots performance at an airline it does seem to make it a more marketable transition provided you have acquired enough hours. 1500 TACAIR hours seems to be the sweet spot.
There will still be airlines in 8-10 years but they may not be looking for competitive applicants. I went through primary/advanced before 9/11 and all the IPs were talking airlines etc. All of my IPs except those hired by SWA were furloughed multiple times. The SNAs all wanted P3s because they wanted the shortest commitment at the time and their obligations all ended during the age 65 rule implementation. Most went into business/contracting instead. You very well could be facing furloughs or Age 67+ when the time comes for you to leave the Navy and you will be on the back end of the retirement wave.
P3/P8 guys all say they would hate being on the boat. Mostly I think that is because they are in squadrons with 70-80 folks and they never truly get to know each other. What makes the boat tolerable is #1 the flying and #2 the 10-12 other JO's that you will spend most of your time with.
I say go pick the mission that most interests you if it is available and worry about the airlines in about 5-6 years. Your enjoyment/fulfillment of your career will primarily be based on the O4/O5 leadership that you are exposed to during your first two tours and not really about the aircraft that you fly. Make sure your wife is onboard with any decisions you make. Spouses groups are far more tight knit in VFA/Helos but ultimately that is up to the COs spouse.
Also - understand this very clearly - the Navy typically does not send its best and brightest fixed wing pilots to teach at the VTs. Top performers are usually teaching at the FRS and Weapons Schools or going to test squadrons. Most at the VTs are there because they want out of the Navy and they want to stay flying during their shore tour and it was the only opportunity. Not ALL...but most/many. So the opinions that you are getting from IPs may be jaded.
Good luck with your decision...you are lucky to have that opportunity to make it!
Cheers,
FW
01-04-2018, 11:26 AM
#23
On Reserve
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
One of the reasons I wanted to chose helos was to quickly transition to the MV-22 - after all they were just around the corner!
Almost 15+ years later - they finally hit the fleet!
Good thing I ended up not basing my assignments on what some Flag was saying at the time.
OP - I've lived in both Virginia Beach and Lemoore - and I currently live in OKC. Guess I've hit all of your hot-spots.
Opinions - I had an on-wing (former S-2 pilot) that was incredibly jaded against helos and gave me quite the lip smacking when I told him I had decided to chose helos. Opinions are just those - and you have to take into account WHERE and WHO they are coming from and the experiences/backgrounds of those giving them to really make much sense of them
FlyBoyd and FlewNavy have great advise in their posts.
Almost 15+ years later - they finally hit the fleet!
Good thing I ended up not basing my assignments on what some Flag was saying at the time.
OP - I've lived in both Virginia Beach and Lemoore - and I currently live in OKC. Guess I've hit all of your hot-spots.
Opinions - I had an on-wing (former S-2 pilot) that was incredibly jaded against helos and gave me quite the lip smacking when I told him I had decided to chose helos. Opinions are just those - and you have to take into account WHERE and WHO they are coming from and the experiences/backgrounds of those giving them to really make much sense of them
FlyBoyd and FlewNavy have great advise in their posts.
01-04-2018, 11:27 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by FlyBoyd
Yes, I do.
The thing about E-6s is that the highs aren’t as high but the lows aren’t as low either. You don’t get to do a lot of the so called cool things but you also don’t HAVE to do a lot of the crappy things, too. The perceived problem with the community is there is no real mission accomplishment. If you ever actually do the primary mission, the world as we know it will change forever. So, because you never get to actually do it, they focus on other things to measure/feel a sense of accomplishment. Basically, the NFOs took a really good gentlemen’s flying club and f-ed it away with metrics and face-time shenanigans....but you will find this at some level in every community. That being said, I had a good time. It is what you make it. For the better part of three and a half years I was gone three weeks and home three weeks. OKC gets a bad rap. It’s not a boat and it isn’t sandy. I was half a day’s drive from home, deploying (really more like a det) to a comfortable alert facility on an Air Force base with Air Force support structure.
If you want to fly in the airlines post-Navy, having E-6 time will certainly help. There are a fair amount of us that did their initial commitment, joined the reserves, and got on with a major. There are also others, like me, that left the community and flew elsewhere until retirement before getting hired.
You are too far out to try to guess. IMO, the only thing you can do is go fixed wing, enjoy the ride, and see what the future brings. Oh, and take the CNATRA info about Ospreys and throw it in the nearest trash can. He just told you what he knows as of today. It’ll change a hundred times.
The thing about E-6s is that the highs aren’t as high but the lows aren’t as low either. You don’t get to do a lot of the so called cool things but you also don’t HAVE to do a lot of the crappy things, too. The perceived problem with the community is there is no real mission accomplishment. If you ever actually do the primary mission, the world as we know it will change forever. So, because you never get to actually do it, they focus on other things to measure/feel a sense of accomplishment. Basically, the NFOs took a really good gentlemen’s flying club and f-ed it away with metrics and face-time shenanigans....but you will find this at some level in every community. That being said, I had a good time. It is what you make it. For the better part of three and a half years I was gone three weeks and home three weeks. OKC gets a bad rap. It’s not a boat and it isn’t sandy. I was half a day’s drive from home, deploying (really more like a det) to a comfortable alert facility on an Air Force base with Air Force support structure.
If you want to fly in the airlines post-Navy, having E-6 time will certainly help. There are a fair amount of us that did their initial commitment, joined the reserves, and got on with a major. There are also others, like me, that left the community and flew elsewhere until retirement before getting hired.
You are too far out to try to guess. IMO, the only thing you can do is go fixed wing, enjoy the ride, and see what the future brings. Oh, and take the CNATRA info about Ospreys and throw it in the nearest trash can. He just told you what he knows as of today. It’ll change a hundred times.
Thanks
01-04-2018, 11:47 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Originally Posted by Tannhauser621
Solid response. Do you mind if ask what you did in between leaving the Navy and going to the airlines?
Thanks
Thanks
01-04-2018, 01:13 PM
#27
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Looking back on my career, Helos cost me 5 years seniority at my Legacy airline job. That HURT.
No question:
P-8s if you want to deploy.
E-6s if you don't.
If I had your choices and my ultimate goal was the airlines there's NO question:
E-6s
P-8s
TacAir
E-2/C-2
Avoid helos like the plague.
Consider what a loss of 5 years seniority in a 25-30 year airline career will cost you in terms of:
Capt. Upgrade
Widebody flying
Bidding
Pay
Quality of Life
401k contributions.
Once again...AVOID HELOS LIKE THE PLAGUE.
No question:
P-8s if you want to deploy.
E-6s if you don't.
If I had your choices and my ultimate goal was the airlines there's NO question:
E-6s
P-8s
TacAir
E-2/C-2
Avoid helos like the plague.
Consider what a loss of 5 years seniority in a 25-30 year airline career will cost you in terms of:
Capt. Upgrade
Widebody flying
Bidding
Pay
Quality of Life
401k contributions.
Once again...AVOID HELOS LIKE THE PLAGUE.
01-04-2018, 01:19 PM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,443
Navy pipeline selection help
Some good info above. DO NOT go helos if you want to be an airline pilot. Your helo time is basically a cool story on your application and not a whole lot else. Yes, there are RTP programs, but if you want to skip the regionals and go to the bigs, helo time won’t help much (exception of JB).
I personally thought the E-6 was great. Granted, I am four years removed from the community, but Boyd’s description above is spot on. The highs aren’t very high and the lows aren’t very low.
You will get plenty of hours there and hopefully a good flying follow on job that you can segue into an airline job.
I still live in okc even after I retired...it’s a great city and an easy commute to an airline job with cheap living, plenty to do, and great people.
I would caution you to not listen too hard to a few broken toys in VT land. We send some good folks there, but we also send some of those who aren’t too happy with the community and who didn’t perform well.
Talk to more than one person. All of the communities you listed have good and bad parts.
I was a VT instructor for 3 years and I understand the dilemma that students go though making choices. In the end, though, the Navy mostly chooses for you. If you have a good attitude and can fly reasonably well you will do just fine wherever you land.
I personally thought the E-6 was great. Granted, I am four years removed from the community, but Boyd’s description above is spot on. The highs aren’t very high and the lows aren’t very low.
You will get plenty of hours there and hopefully a good flying follow on job that you can segue into an airline job.
I still live in okc even after I retired...it’s a great city and an easy commute to an airline job with cheap living, plenty to do, and great people.
I would caution you to not listen too hard to a few broken toys in VT land. We send some good folks there, but we also send some of those who aren’t too happy with the community and who didn’t perform well.
Talk to more than one person. All of the communities you listed have good and bad parts.
I was a VT instructor for 3 years and I understand the dilemma that students go though making choices. In the end, though, the Navy mostly chooses for you. If you have a good attitude and can fly reasonably well you will do just fine wherever you land.
01-04-2018, 01:31 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: FDX 767 FO
Posts: 817
Your biggest hurdles will be....
1- What to do after your second flying tour. It probably will be non-flying and you will want to get out and go to the reserves. Whether it is a TACAIR, VT, or VR squadron, competition is stiff and being noncurrent makes it even harder.
2- Not letting the discussion here (or your current mindset on the airlines) get to your squadron. If the wrong CO (most of them) gets the idea you are just padding your logbook for your next life, getting the next set of desirable orders will be increasingly difficult. You need to play this very close to the vest. Everyone knows it’s a fallback if the Navy doesn’t work out. Don’t say it’s your primary goal.
1- What to do after your second flying tour. It probably will be non-flying and you will want to get out and go to the reserves. Whether it is a TACAIR, VT, or VR squadron, competition is stiff and being noncurrent makes it even harder.
2- Not letting the discussion here (or your current mindset on the airlines) get to your squadron. If the wrong CO (most of them) gets the idea you are just padding your logbook for your next life, getting the next set of desirable orders will be increasingly difficult. You need to play this very close to the vest. Everyone knows it’s a fallback if the Navy doesn’t work out. Don’t say it’s your primary goal.
01-04-2018, 01:42 PM
#30
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by FlyBoyd
Your biggest hurdles will be....
1- What to do after your second flying tour. It probably will be non-flying and you will want to get out and go to the reserves. Whether it is a TACAIR, VT, or VR squadron, competition is stiff and being noncurrent makes it even harder.
2- Not letting the discussion here (or your current mindset on the airlines) get to your squadron. If the wrong CO (most of them) gets the idea you are just padding your logbook for your next life, getting the next set of desirable orders will be increasingly difficult. You need to play this very close to the vest. Everyone knows it’s a fallback if the Navy doesn’t work out. Don’t say it’s your primary goal.
1- What to do after your second flying tour. It probably will be non-flying and you will want to get out and go to the reserves. Whether it is a TACAIR, VT, or VR squadron, competition is stiff and being noncurrent makes it even harder.
2- Not letting the discussion here (or your current mindset on the airlines) get to your squadron. If the wrong CO (most of them) gets the idea you are just padding your logbook for your next life, getting the next set of desirable orders will be increasingly difficult. You need to play this very close to the vest. Everyone knows it’s a fallback if the Navy doesn’t work out. Don’t say it’s your primary goal.
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