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Military or flight school?

Old 06-18-2018, 07:15 PM
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Hello everyone,

I am a 24 year old recent college athlete graduate who isn’t using his degree. I have always dreamed of flying and serving in the military. I eventually want to fly for an airliner/cargo such as Delta/FedEx. I am trying to get some advice on what would be the best possible route to get me there as quickly as possible to start gaining seniority. I have several friends who have joined flight schools and some who have joined military. As of right now I am considering joining the air national guard in Birmingham, AL as an officer (first getting my private pilots license for experience) and am also considering joining a flight school in Birmingham. I understand the air national guard is a 10 year commitment but I know that military based training is far superior to a flight school. I would not join the ANG just for the training as I stated earlier, I have always dreamed of serving, it’s just that I am 24 years old and I know it takes a while to gain seniority. Just looking for some advice

Thanks
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Old 06-18-2018, 08:46 PM
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If you have a reasonable chance of getting Air Force flight training through either the Air National Guard or the Air Force Reserve you ought to go for it. Yep, there will be deployments, etc., but most majors and regionals will put up with that. And having them pay you for learning to fly is often a whole lot better deal than you paying someone else.
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Old 06-19-2018, 05:43 AM
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If you join the guard or USAF reserve for a pilot slot, you can still get work as a CFI and then a regional pilot when not on military duty. That way you can progress both careers in parallel without losing much seniority.

Actually since the military wings will get you hired faster at a top-tier major airline, the guard/reserve is probably the fastest way to a good seniority number.

Most of us who came from the military believe this is the best route, even though most of us didn't know that when we were kids.

Assuming you want to serve, but you already know that.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
If you join the guard or USAF reserve for a pilot slot, you can still get work as a CFI and then a regional pilot when not on military duty. That way you can progress both careers in parallel without losing much seniority.

Actually since the military wings will get you hired faster at a top-tier major airline, the guard/reserve is probably the fastest way to a good seniority number.

Most of us who came from the military believe this is the best route, even though most of us didn't know that when we were kids.

Assuming you want to serve, but you already know that.
Would you recommend getting my private pilots license before I sit down in front of an interview board? I’ve heard they like to see experience but sometimes too much experience creates habits that some military personnel don’t like when teaching you to fly their way.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KTM1524 View Post
Would you recommend getting my private pilots license before I sit down in front of an interview board? I’ve heard they like to see experience but sometimes too much experience creates habits that some military personnel don’t like when teaching you to fly their way.
PPL would probably be very helpful. In addition to piloting skills, it shows some ability to follow through, pass tests, etc.

There are RJ CA's who complete UPT... if you have a lot of experience, the trick is to focus on doing things THEIR way, not YOUR way (or the FAA's way). Previous experience will make it easier to learn, but you have to focus on LEARNING the new stuff. So your attitude and approach is important.
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Old 06-19-2018, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by KTM1524 View Post
Would you recommend getting my private pilots license before I sit down in front of an interview board? I’ve heard they like to see experience but sometimes too much experience creates habits that some military personnel don’t like when teaching you to fly their way.
Your PPL will help with your AFOQT pilot/nav scores, and definitely with your PCSM score, both of which have a fairly substantial weight with ANG/USAFR hiring boards (depending on the unit...some don't care that much about them). But certainly, the basic flight experience and commitment to finish it, as well as you knowing what you are getting into in the flight training world, means a lot. From my rushing experience, the PPL is almost required to get hired by fighter squadrons. I don't know anyone hired by a fighter squadron without it. My few bros in the heavy world have said most of their hires have at least PPLs as well, or at least a decent amount of flight time working towards it. I know some guys get hired without it, but I'd venture to say they are few and far between.

Regarding experience, the ones I've heard complain about "too much experience" are referring to guys who have several thousand hours who are set in their ways. But there are several airline guys with thousands of hours going through UPT right now. There's also one guard fighter squadron commander who told my bro that army pilots and often struggle going through UPT and have trouble unlearning old army ways. Point is, a PPL, and likely anything under 1,000 hours, isn't going to concern anyone.

Regarding the choice between mil and civ, decide what you want to do, and do that. If you busted your tail in the civ world, you could get your ratings and be at a regional in 2-3 years. It'll be peak hiring in 5 years or so, and you could likely get hired by a major at 29/30. If you go to the military, you'd be 25/26 when you start, and have competitive mins at age 30-33 depending on what you flew. The math could change with as many variables as there are. Age 67 could happen, a downturn could happen, who knows.

But when you are 35 sitting in an airliner having foregone the military route, knowing you'll be doing the same boring airline flying for the next 30 years, thinking to yourself, man, sure would be fun to rage around in an F16, it'll be too late then. Or when you are on a 4 day with a guy who was military, you hear his stories, and know you missed out on something you will forever regret. I have flown with a lot of guys who said "I was going to join the military, but..." or "yeah I wish I had done the military route, but I did X, Y, and Z and it just never worked out." I have yet to fly with a mil guy who regrets it. I have flown with many a civilian guy who does regret not doing mil. But only do it if you really want to do it, because a lot of the job sucks, especially these days.
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Old 06-19-2018, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KTM1524 View Post
Would you recommend getting my private pilots license before I sit down in front of an interview board? I’ve heard they like to see experience but sometimes too much experience creates habits that some military personnel don’t like when teaching you to fly their way.
Yes get the private certificate for sure, but don’t wait on that to apply to the Guard. Start working on the PPC next week, and start working on your applications today. This is definately a great way to go.
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Old 06-19-2018, 04:38 PM
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First posting in the forum, but maybe my insights might help.


I flew F-16's and only accumulated a total of 994 hours (T-41, T-37, T-38, and Viper). But that all happened a long time ago: my last flight in the F-16 was April of 2002. I left flying for good, or so I thought, by serving out the rest of my commitment on the ground working with the Army and then getting out in 2005. After a couple of years bouncing around, I got a great job at Boeing in Mesa AZ working on the Apache. Zero plans to ever fly again.


Until this past Christmas when, out of frustration trying to move to the southeast to be closer to my wife's family, I started asking colleagues about going back to flying because you can commute to your job. Long story short: I got immediate interviews and offers with Envoy (who still haven't called me back because their training pipeline is backed up, or so I've heard) and then at ExpressJet. I'm typing this from the hotel room in Houston, one month into ERJ-145 training. No, I have not gone straight to the big show with a major carrier, but I don't want to at this point: I think a regional jet and regional type of flying is exactly where I need to be. I'll start applying to the big boys in earnest when I get an unrestricted ATP.


My point in all this is that I did not fly for 16 YEARS, and without even going to get recurrent, landed 2 offers at regionals. There are a couple of reasons for this: I did get my commercial multi rating with the FAA right after pilot training. But more importantly, I have military flight training. It is simply the gold standard. Of course, the hiring climate right now is pretty good, and I didn't even know it existed until 6 months ago.


And man do I have some stories from flying the Viper.


Going military is something that's a lot of hard work, but in time you will not regret it. It opens the doors to a lot of opportunities.
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Old 06-19-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
Your PPL will help with your AFOQT pilot/nav scores, and definitely with your PCSM score, both of which have a fairly substantial weight with ANG/USAFR hiring boards (depending on the unit...some don't care that much about them). But certainly, the basic flight experience and commitment to finish it, as well as you knowing what you are getting into in the flight training world, means a lot. From my rushing experience, the PPL is almost required to get hired by fighter squadrons. I don't know anyone hired by a fighter squadron without it. My few bros in the heavy world have said most of their hires have at least PPLs as well, or at least a decent amount of flight time working towards it. I know some guys get hired without it, but I'd venture to say they are few and far between.

Regarding experience, the ones I've heard complain about "too much experience" are referring to guys who have several thousand hours who are set in their ways. But there are several airline guys with thousands of hours going through UPT right now. There's also one guard fighter squadron commander who told my bro that army pilots and often struggle going through UPT and have trouble unlearning old army ways. Point is, a PPL, and likely anything under 1,000 hours, isn't going to concern anyone.

Regarding the choice between mil and civ, decide what you want to do, and do that. If you busted your tail in the civ world, you could get your ratings and be at a regional in 2-3 years. It'll be peak hiring in 5 years or so, and you could likely get hired by a major at 29/30. If you go to the military, you'd be 25/26 when you start, and have competitive mins at age 30-33 depending on what you flew. The math could change with as many variables as there are. Age 67 could happen, a downturn could happen, who knows.

But when you are 35 sitting in an airliner having foregone the military route, knowing you'll be doing the same boring airline flying for the next 30 years, thinking to yourself, man, sure would be fun to rage around in an F16, it'll be too late then. Or when you are on a 4 day with a guy who was military, you hear his stories, and know you missed out on something you will forever regret. I have flown with a lot of guys who said "I was going to join the military, but..." or "yeah I wish I had done the military route, but I did X, Y, and Z and it just never worked out." I have yet to fly with a mil guy who regrets it. I have flown with many a civilian guy who does regret not doing mil. But only do it if you really want to do it, because a lot of the job sucks, especially these days.
Wow man this is great stuff! I really appreciate the reply. In regards to your third paragraph, it almost sounds like you are making it seem like going the civilian route would be quicker. But from what I’ve heard you actually have a chance to get on straight with a major and skipping regionals all together flying for military than you do civilian. Do you know of this to be true?

And for the fourth paragraph. As much as I’d love to be an f-16 pilot. I’ve been told that it’s tougher for guys flying those to be hired on by airliners. They would rather have guys flying larger frame aircrafts such as kc-135’s (which is at the top of my list), c-130’s etc etc. Plus I know making a career flying f-16’s for the military wouldn’t be as good of pay as flying for airliners/cargo. Not that I am only wanting to do it for that reason, it’s just I have a wife with expensive taste lol and I want to live comfortable. I may be wrong about them making good money flying for military so excuse me if I am.
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by KTM1524 View Post
Wow man this is great stuff! I really appreciate the reply. In regards to your third paragraph, it almost sounds like you are making it seem like going the civilian route would be quicker. But from what I’ve heard you actually have a chance to get on straight with a major and skipping regionals all together flying for military than you do civilian. Do you know of this to be true?

And for the fourth paragraph. As much as I’d love to be an f-16 pilot. I’ve been told that it’s tougher for guys flying those to be hired on by airliners. They would rather have guys flying larger frame aircrafts such as kc-135’s (which is at the top of my list), c-130’s etc etc. Plus I know making a career flying f-16’s for the military wouldn’t be as good of pay as flying for airliners/cargo. Not that I am only wanting to do it for that reason, it’s just I have a wife with expensive taste lol and I want to live comfortable. I may be wrong about them making good money flying for military so excuse me if I am.

Right now the civilian track may be faster to get to a major. May. Not everyone gets the call and plenty get stuck in the regionals for 5-10-15+ years. But there are 24-25 year olds getting on with legacy airlines right now (heard of 2 different 23 year olds as well). There are record retirements over the next 5-7 years, so timing right now has never been better to get on with a major airline, hiring at regionals has never been so open and uncompetitive (with a few exceptions in the 250 hour wonder era), nor has it paid so much. So a lot of people see the civilian route as the best way to go and the path of least resistance. But, yes, lots of people go straight from mil flying to the majors. Some mil guys go to regionals (low fixed-wing time, low currency/recency, etc.) As a guard guy, if you can get a ton of flight time in the first 5-6 years, you can be competitive and go part time guard/reserve and start an airline career, at least at the regionals and possibly majors. Timing to have competitive major minimums just depends on what you fly, how much you are flying, and what your resume looks like.

Flying fighters is absolutely not a disadvantage when applying to airlines. The caveat is most fighter pilots log about 1.3 hours or so per sortie, and on average fly less than their heavy counterparts, so it could take longer to build time. But all of it is TPIC high quality flight time, and every single one of my fighter pilot bros who has applied to a top tier airline (DL/UAL/AA/SWA/FDX) and has gotten a call from most of the places they apply to. If you have the fighter pilot box checked, you are in the competitive category by virtue of being in the club. AA's pilot application website literally has a box that asks you something to the effect of "are you or have you ever been a fighter pilot?" Clearly the time sheet in the app would show any fighter time, so I have to think checking that box separates the app from the rest or at least pushes it through the computer system for a person to look at. But there isn't a tanker or C130 box on that site.

The ANG/reserve network at the airlines is big, so that can help tremendously with hiring. The regional networks just don't seem as strong as the mil network. When everyone in a squadron works for brand X and Y, it's easy to get a bunch of LORs and chief pilot meetings with guys walking your stuff right in.

When you are choosing a career flying KC-135s vs C-130s vs F-16s (or any other airframe) vs airlines, you need to properly identify the career path. I assume you'd be going guard or reserve. Your career in the mil will pay the same being a heavy or fighter guy. You'd fly full time for a little while in the military, then go airline/part time guard. Regardless of what you fly in the military, your pay is the same, and your time commitments are similar. Fighter guys have a few more flying requirements they have to do for currency, so they probably average more days in the squadron than heavy part timers, but they won't make any less over their career than the heavy guys, generally speaking. Your competitiveness for DL/AA/UAL/SWA/FDX/UPS is pretty much a wash regardless of your airframe. The mil pilot hiring pool is being depleted daily, and most mil pilots are desirable to airlines.
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