Moose, I've done that math, and I think it works out to be roughly $500,000.

Interesting perspective from the other side, thanks for sharing.

Moose,

I agree with you...that retirement check is nothing to sneeze at. Buds at my company always have a smile on their face when they walked to the mail box that day to get their check (for having a pulse). Of course there is a tradeoff...they will have ten years of less seniority compared to me when I am their age.
As a it has been mentioned before on this thread...you will eventually collect that check also....(but way down the road and with a much shorter life span to compound). You will hopefully have that second defined benefit pension to look forward to also (maybe this is wishful thinking...who knows). It all depends on what you want to do for the rest of your life. Sticking it out in the AF for 20 will give you options if you want to explore other careers while still having that retirement income to fall back on while you transition. Seems like once you start the airline gig you are locked in. I am having trouble imagining what it would be like to have the same airline schedule for the next 30 years of my life.

The reserves are must to keep your foot in the door while still accumulating active duty points...hopefully that window of opportunity will open up for you and AFPC will announce "we need experienced dudes back...here is the bonus". Not sure if this will ever happen again...but we've all seen mother AF make stranger decisions.

There are certainly days when I regret having gotten out. Those days are few though. Talking to buds who are still in and hearing there deployment schedule reminds of why I am glad to be out. I think I could have done it with the pre 9-11 lifestyle, where you could plan your deployments on a 3 year calendar. There is just too much sea time nowadays. Staying in another 10 may have been better financially, but I wouldn't want to miss the best years of my 3 young kids' lives.

Depends on where you end up working on the first part and there is no price for the second.

The work load for everyone has increased dramatically. JO's with 3-4 jobs (not flight related), DH's with 4-5! 7-9 month standard deployments...followed up by workup for surge...followed up by weps det for sharp numbers......If you are flying anything off a boat you are gone so much, its really not funny. Cant speak for other services but I am sure they are in the same predicament.:eek:

A military pension is a VERY nice thing to have. It is a lot of money but one thing to think about: Your pay check in the military is set. i.e you cannot work overtime or extra time to make more money....yes of course you can get Hazard Duty, Combat, Tax Free...etc...etc...but that is only so much.....if you go to work at UPS/FDX as you mentioned you can pick up open/extra time and make almost as much money as you want. Also each year you are there you get a pay raise(up to 12 years)...regardless. In the military it is a raise every two years. Promotion is no guarantee. I only know one person who went back AD (post 9/11) as an 0-4 that made 0-5 out of 8 people. Not very good numbers:mad:. Just something to think about....BTW I would not be surprised if both UPS and FDX start hiring late spring or early summer.

I didn't realize the promotion numbers for the folks that returned to active duty were go grim. Anyone else heard/experienced otherwise? Also, I agree...you may soon see FDX hiring directly into the foregin domiciles...maybe even MEM depending on what some of the over 60 dudes do.

Nope. I only know of 1 of 6. The others are homesteading which may have something to do with it, but make no mistake, a break in service is most often considered "disloyal." Before I got out I heard others say that they couldn't believe that this disloyal dude got promoted...things like that.

The word I heard was "Quitter". Most of the guys I know immediately got sent overseas for at least 6 months on some "hard fill".

Most of the reserve guys I know throw the "quit" word around with pride. Usually in association with an IA, or the fact that they won't take one, ie "they can offer me an IA, but I won't take it. I quit once, I'll do it again..."

Are reserve guys where you are getting IA hits?

In a word, yes. Although that phrase I used has been thrown around much longer than the IA business has been going on, so apply it to anything the reserves want them to do that they don't like.

What's IA mean? I'm not in the reserves yet.

Navy speak for Individual Augment. Basically the Navy is sending individuals on TDY orders in theatre to 'augment' army units or other CENTCOM commands. As of 2 weeks ago, BUPERS told us there were 14,000 Navy personnel on the ground in the CENTCOM AOR. Typically IA's are given to those who are A)getting out B) need the IA for a 'check in the box' competitive reason or C) have time between PCS moves and it makes sense to send them while keeping them on track for career milestones.

The kicker to it is not only does it suck for the person going over, but that person's home unit still has him name on the books, ie, no replacement while he's gone. Send 6 or 8 guys from your unit on IA's for 6 or 12 months, and you either suck it up as one of the guys going over, or you get to shoulder their load while they are gone.

I submitted my request for retirement last month and the snide remark from the Captain was "So, you're quitting". To which I replied that I hardly think 21 years of service qualifies as quitting.


The mindset must change. Our people are volunteers and serve with pride. When the time comes to move on, we should say thanks! I've had two Sailors leave with under 10 years of service this past year. I thanked them profusely for serving their country and doing their best and wished them well in the future.

We all leave the service one day. Unless of course you make O-11:D

I dont know why most people "staying in" or "Career people" say that to people that decide to do something else with their life. 21 years is a large chunk of your life. I cant believe he/she said that to you:eek:. What was their response when you said that?

He had the good grace to be chagrined and speechless followed by significant backpedaling!

I would imagine....

I punched at the 14-year mark.... late for my DH tour (through no fault of my own...G*&D%$ned detailer!) so no shot at CO, and no more flying. Just not worth the pain of being Strike Ops for three years on a carrier then another three on an afloat staff somewhere just to get a check.

Fortunately, I dropped my letter @ 9 mos, and the 4 IA's I popped for afterwards were all more than a year long and well passed my approved release date, so some career sap got to do them. Another O-4 in the squadron dropped his at the 1 year prior mark - got handed 12 month IA orders 24 hours later. Not sure why the O-5's don't think crap like that doesn't have an impact on the JO's.

In hindsight - best decision I ever made!

I hope so, whenever I heard those comments as a reserve CO thrown at the AD folks, I would quiz the AD CO later "where do you think our future aviators come from?" From the kids that 'quitter' recruits back in Hometown, USA with his sea stories" Then point out to him the RC folks in the spaces whose efforts still made him shine to the Commodore. Cripes. If you stay AD, fantastic. I always try to recruit back into the RC side, unfortunately, the RC is getting burn't at the bearings as well. For some, almost like one never left AD.

Yikes!! I dont want to hear that!

[quote=SaltyDog;259136]... shine to the Commodore.... quote]


Probably a stupid question, who or what is "the Commodore?"

[QUOTE=Sputnik;259287]Commodore is the title for a Navy Wing Commander. Once upon a time, it was also a rank (BG), but now only a title.

Moosepilot had some interesting data points...I'll share mine...

I left active duty at 14 years. I took the first bonus at year 7 because the airline I wanted (Delta) wasn't hiring big in 96 and I was marginal on total time for Fedex or Delta. I also was offered the job I wanted a long time--an F-15 to Europe. So...I've been a company man and "stayed blue".

I left in 2002 at 14 years...passing up an active duty retirement to fly part time in the ANG. So I've been a "quitter" too...

I also elected not to pursue an AGR full time spot AFTER I had started at FedEx and had enough points to coast less than 5 years to get an active duty retirement. I realize for many, the 20 year retirement check is the "Holy Grail" of financial security...but I passed on it. Here's why:

The biggest gripe I ever had with active duty was never the money, it was the constant hectic pace and inabilty to control any of my life away from work. The wonder thing about the ANG and airline life was I got a "vote" in what I did next. I got to build equity in a home, start a business, become a church committee member, etc etc. I'm not saying you can't do those things active duty, and I've seen some uber-officers pull it off..but for me my life is so much happier and richer NOT having to move every 3 years and being able to have a few more days off here and there. And, as someone else pointed out--I like being able to work MORE or LESS based on our time/money tradeoffs at the time. Working in the AF was based on real world contingencies, ORIs, and needs of the service--they determined when and how much time you'd get off. I passed on the AGR option because after having the ability to have lunch with my wife on a Tuesday or go out of town on a whim to visit family or friends, I became addicted to that freedom. After a couple years of relative freedom and control surrendering that back to the organization just seemed too big a bite to swallow. My wife was happy, my kids were happy, my business was taking off, and I just didn't want to drive to the base EVERY day for 5 more years. I figured that while on paper the AGR retirement was a better deal financially, the price for it was higher than I wanted to pay. So--I allowed myself the abilty to not "maximize" every decision and follow my heart for a while. And...you know what....we were blessed. Our business(s) have done very well since then , we have moved into new areas (a horse farm), and so far life is good. Your mileage will vary...and we all have to go our own path. But for me...its been a wonderful life on the outside. Its been a gut check, but put us down in the W column. Watching guys get out now (about the time I could have retired) and seeing SWA not hiring and 1200 names behind me at FedEx lets me know the first decision to bail was smart. Passing on the AGR has allowed me to do some things I wouldn't have been able to do as well...it just put that check of the month on hold 17 more years. I think we'll squeek by between now and then...

Now--I'm proud of my service--and I woundn't be who I am today without the training and skills I learned as an officer and pilot. And I probably wouldn't have the professional credibility, either. However, what was perfect for me at 25 and 30 wasn't the best fit at 35 and 40....life changes, we change, and our goals change along the way.

What I can say is my experience financially has been outstanding since I left the service. I lost my pilot bonus in the 2000-2001 stock market downturn. However, since then I've gotten a great airline job (FedEx), started a business, and my wife's career (since we aren't moving!) has blossomed and she does some great work too. A real estate deal or two have gone well, and so far, so good. So--if you look beyond your airline paycheck and see what your dreams are, you can do okay on the outside. Airtran or Jetblue won't make you rich...sorry. However...if you have other skills or interests outside of flying those jobs will afford you the time to try your hand in other areas.

Whatever you do---I like the ANG/Reserve until 20 option. You still get to be on the team fighting the bad guys, even when the organization is still sometimes a pain in the @ss. You've got a small safety net with money and insurance down the road if necessary.

Good luck. This is a great thread and I wish everyone the best--whether they stay or they go...

even if you serve only ONE day in the military you will have my respect for serving your country.

I think people get caught up in the notion that if you dont make the military a career you didnt do enough, or on the other end of that, if youre only doing the minimum time, get out and go to the airlines, then youre less than honorable. Im not sure why people have a problem with that. If you take that oath, do your time, and get out, then you have served honorably and nobody can criticize your decision.

I agree.

The best advice I've been told by a former boss is to always thank an enlisted Marine for his service when he is getting out, he did more than 95% of the rest of America was willing to do (same could be said for any service, not USMC specific here). The only thing you really need to do though, is make sure the Marine has a plan for what he will do when he gets out. College, a specific job lined up, etc. Too many times guys get out with no plan and find themselves back at home, with nothing to do but work at McDonald's or bounce at the local gentleman's club.

On the Officer side, oh nelly, its an entirely different story. I can't add anymore that hasn't been said already in this thread.

Not only was he an AC, he was also and airdrop AC which was even more confusing as to why they are doing this with guys that they've spent so much money on to train.

I heard the same things regarding guys that came back to AD from the AFRES. In our squadron, none of they guys that came back got promoted that I know of. The whole disloyalty thing kills me. I mean, come on, they came back to AD, how disloyal is that?

no good news
 

I pulled this quote off of the ATA thread...pretty disheartening - it's from a guy who attended the AFPC brief at the convention this year:

I was at that brief -- and the AFPC briefer indeed used the term "palace freeze." He said that we "made the Guard & Reserve healthy last year" but "if you have an ADSC today, plan on serving it out."

When someone asked about the future size/scope of aviation continuation pay the briefer said "what's that?" The guy actually had to tell him "You know, the bonus?" Someone asked about the lack of experience and manning in the ops squadrons.

The briefing didn't really say anything we didn't already know - more UAVs, more 365's and more AMLO tours are all headed the MAF's way. And we'll all be doing more with a lot less.

Anywho...BrutusBuckeye how's my favorite mascot stick buddy from IP school? Had yourself freaked out yet on any locals? Lord knows I have.
Peace!

So if the pilot world is supposedly under a "Palace Freeze", how is the force supposed to shrink by an extra 3000 officers next year? Considering the 11XX AFSC is by far the largest one, I cannot believe that they are putting a permanent hold on our early release.

Any thoughts?

NGN

I already served out my pilot training ADSC and right now, my only commitment is the 2 year PCS commitment. I attempted to get a 2 month waiver to Palace Front, and it was not approved. I'm a C-17 guy - overall, we have somewhat sufficient numbers, but it's mostly very very young guys and few guys with any real amount of experience.

I established my separation date in May 08, starting terminal leave in late Feb and starting CAL training in March.

Riddler

Riddler, did you have your separation date in writing before you got the interview with CAL?

My date is up in the air by about 4-6 months right now, its a moving window between April and September of 08, although I should have a solid date in another month or so.

Its my understanding that you need a solid availability date before you can get an interview, since they likely don't want to waste time interviewing a guy who then chooses to stay in, or interview a guy who isn't available for another year or more.

You do need an available date. April - September is a pretty big gap..??? Somebody yanking your chain?

Palace Freeze! That's a good one. Looks like you and I are in it for the long haul. (at least till the end of our UPT commit.)

Got freaked out once last night, but by some otherguys in the pattern at XNO taking off in the opposite direction and not telling anyone. Thank God for TCAS!

No, its a coincidence that my ADSC is coming up about the same time as 2P. My ADSC is 1 Sep 08, but if the O-4 selection message comes out next month and my name isn't on it, Title 10 trumps the ADSC and I might be able to have an EAS around May-Jun and be available in April with terminal leave. I'm hoping for the 2P, the golden handshake, and an availability date this spring.

If you can breath and don't have an Article 15 or some other skelaton in your closet you will make O-4.

What kind of skeletons are we talking about here?

A failed palace chase attempt?
An LOC for wearing white socks with your desert flight suit?
...
Or, and best yet, a mug shot and a writeup at your local SF squad for breaking red during a civilian static display?

Skeletons notwithstanding, anyone here get promoted to O-4 WITHOUT a master's degree?

Yup. AD O-4 promotion without a masters AND without SOS (residence or correspondence). I wasn't even a flight commander. Turned it down to separate and join the Guard. They promoted me to O-4 and O-5 and all I had to do was finish ACSC in correspondence.
Obviously you're mileage may vary depending on the needs of the AF and temp of the waters at the time.

Yeah, 2 years ago what Ug said held on the Marine Hornet side. Last year they cut back 20% on the Hornet pilots they selected, which coincidently corresponded to the shut down of 3 reserve and 1 AD Hornet squadron, and another Hornet squadron potentially on the chopping block.

Again, I'm really hoping for that golden handshake out the door, for me it will be roughly equivalent to 1 year of pay. Gut feeling is I'm going to get selected though, just so I can screwed over one more time.

Made O-4 in the Dec 05 board without a Masters (or BAC+, for that matter). I was marching along under Gen Jumper's famous policy of..."if we want you to have a Masters, we'll send you to get it (IDE...)". Yeah, I know Moseley undid that policy. I don't think Moseley could stand the deafening whine from all the dudes who had just turned in their last Embry-Ridiculous paper, only to wake up the next morning and read Jumper's letter to Airman saying they'd just wasted 2 years chasing a meaningless degree.