rickair7777

Some (AA?) demand written logbooks. I use the PC thing basically as a math checker, backup, and a database for figuring various flight times. I don't think anyone is going to hold a little real-world messiness/coffee stains against you...they would probably wonder about a perfectly clean logbook.

p3pilot

I photo copy my military log book every year and keep it in a fire box, thats it. When I left my first tour in a VP squadron I asked for the records and they never produced them. I used to keep a electronic book and got so behind on it that I just gave up. I have never heard of an airline being fuzzy over the time as log as it makes sense for the age and time in model.

hyflyt560

Keep a logbook...it's fun to keep and as previously stated, provides some nostalgia. If you're not too far down the road with hours, start an electronic book as well...something I wish I'd done 10,000 hours ago.

Not sure about those in the other services (those who did better on "The Test"), but the Army's yearly closeout (yearly printout of all flight times) leaves a lot to be desired. The program is so antiquated, it looks like something someone would type out on a typewriter. Also, at least in the Army, we log things differently than is allowed by the FAA. For example, we log night time starting at sunset. We only log one condition of flight, so if you're IMC at night, you either log IMC or night. As an instrument examiner, I can flight check two flying pilots while sitting in back observing. On my yearly closeout, my times would reflect X-amount of hours as examiner discounting the fact that some of that time may have been spent NOT at a set of controls.

UH60driver

So far, the best payoff I had from tracking all my FLT time in a personal logbook is that I was able to produce all my flight time to FLT OPS after the unit lost all pilot records due to Hurricane Katrina.

L.S.

CAFB 04-12

Wouldn't it be true, though, that not all "MP/IP/EP" time would be "PIC" time? (e.g. "other" time as an MP) I'm not familiar enough with USAF HARM products to know if they actually account for time as the "A" code pilot.

TipTip35

CAFB, you are correct all MP and above time is not necessarily PIC time. The AF does not track true PIC time. They track the time you have since becoming an MP (aircraft commander) which will probably be mostly PIC time but not 100% PIC time. In fact I think the AF counts FP time in the MP category too. I'm not sure how military guys without logbooks prove their exact PIC time to airlines...If anyone has a good answer let me know b/c I'm curious myself. Our HARMS printout will show total MP time in each airplane you've flown so I guess some guys sell that to the airlines as all PIC time..honestly there's no way to prove otherwise. Anybody got any answers??

TankerDriver

This is how I would interpret it. I would count any time you're the A code as PIC time. If you're an MP flying with a more experienced MP (who has the A code), you're time would probably be best described as Second In Command (SIC) time in FAA terms. However, if I were an MP flying with an IP/EP, say on a checkride, I would log PIC even though the EP would have the A code. This is because in the civilian world, you log your checkrides as PIC.

The Air Force has primary, secondary and other time. As an FPC, primary and secondary time will obviously never be PIC time. However, as an MP with the A code, primary and secondary time is always PIC. I would never consider other time as PIC or even SIC. A shadey area would be if an IP/EP with the A code is in the jumpseat logging "other" time and IP/EP time. I would feel I was cheating the system logging PIC time in the jumpseat while two other pilots were at the controls, but technically, you are the IP/EP and the FAA/airlines would probably not having a problem with you counting that time as PIC time. As a copilot, interpreting time is pretty easy because none of it's PIC time. I count my primary/secondary time towards my total time/turbine time/multiengine time/etc which is combined with the civilian time I have.

A lot of it is interpretation because the Air Force and FAA's definition of flight time are two different things. The best thing to do is just hand an airline a HARMS printout and have them interpret it, but I would still use an electronic or paper logbook for your own records, just in case the Air Force's HARMS system takes a dump and loses all your time. While logging it myself, I would log the time the way the FAA would expect to see it (PIC, SIC, etc...).

TipTip35

I tend to define PIC as being the A code. I know thats how FedEx and some other airlines define it so thats the only reason I do it that way. I disagree with not logging PIC while in the jump if you are the A code. We frequently fly augmented so I have a ton of other time but if I'm the A code I still call it PIC because even if I'm sleep I'm responsible and as soon as something happens the other two guys are getting me up to make a decision. As I said before the problem is still that the AF doesnt track "A-code" time and thats really what the airlines want to know....

Phred

I kept a computerized log book and showed it at interviews, but most companies want to see your Form 5. They can tell if your PIC time is in the ball park from the numbers they see on your Form 5 under Aircraft Commander, etc. Anyone can pencil whip PIC time, so the supporting documentation is a real biggie. No documentation at all will sink your interview in a NY minute. I doubt that any interviewer would want to see a stack of 100s of 781's.

Phred

Here is how it was explained to me by FedEx: MP, IP, & EP time when you are "A" coded is PIC time. That includes all the Primary, Secondary and Other time you logged on that flight. If you are an MP or IP or EP and NOT in command, then all you can log is SIC or Other (which is useless). You can mention the EP and IP time in those totals, but those numbers can't be added into the PIC column.

Hope this helps.