Waldo11

Just saw this on AOPA, curious as to what others (both Civilian and military guys think of this). Background info is 2 civilian VFR aircraft flying through Luke AFB active MOA's. Legal to do, but smart?

If the link doesn't work just google "F-16's close call with GA aircraft"

AOPA Online: FAA releases radar video of F-16's close call with GA aircraft

fiveninerzero

Hello,

Here is a thread in the other forum on this topic: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ha...16-pilots.html

It's instances like these that they made http://www.seeandavoid.org for.

BDGERJMN

While its next to impossible to extract what exactly transpired from the tapes with respect to the actions of both the Vipers and the Civilan aircraft all of us that fly pointy nose airplanes don't have the first clue why someone would want to transit an active MOA VFR. That said it's pretty common on the civilian(GENAV) side of the fence not to have the first clue what goes on in an active MOA. The experience level of the aircrew in the commercial aricraft in those tapes should have precluded flying at that altitude(heart of BFM envelope or merged engaged arena). Now if the VIPER guys joined up and were screwing around bad on them and vise versa if the commercial traffic misunderstood their actions. Either way, be thankful there wasn't a midair and loss of life.

zondaracer

I think this guy was VFR in an MOA
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/w...061203156.html

trafly

VFR in a MOA? Two words. Bad Idea.

USMCFLYR

Looks more like he was on a VR low level - 600+' AGL and 355 kts.
Either way - very close.

USMCFLYR

UAL T38 Phlyer

I know one of the guys involved in this...he was a brand-new FAIP, going through T-38 IP school at Randolph.

They are on a dedicated low-level route, which in effect, is like a MOA for low-altitude flying. Again, this was something that was not explained to me adequately when I was a civilian flyer. The routes are typically about 5-8 miles wide, surface to 1500 ft, or even as high as 4000 ft (typical; each route and each leg is different. Only place to find the info I know of is in military publications--any civilians know of another source? AIM?) I know the centerline of the routes is usually shown on sectionals.

In the T-38, we fly these routes at 500-700 ft AGL, at a planned speed of 360 Ground. As long as you do this inside the route airspace, the speed below 10,000 rule does not apply. You fly the route to meet a time over target at the end of the route (about 25-30 minutes later), plus or minus 15 seconds. (This means the meandering route may be 200 miles long). To make timing corrections, we can go up to 400 IAS, or as slow as 300.

Of note: this occured south of San Antonio, within radar coverage of San Antonio Approach, and the T-38C has TCAS--nobody saw anything until it was real close. They missed by about 50-100 ft. It is believed the civilian never saw them (he never maneuvered).

Fast-Fighters will do them in multiples of 60 knots (makes the math easy), so most fighters fly at 420 or 480 ground. Target leg may be as fast as 540.

My point here is civilian flyers would be at an advantage if they could find the route dimensions of VR and IR low-level routes. IR routes are "owned" by an approach control or center; they could tell you if they are hot. VR routes are usually owned by a FSS, but sometimes controlled by approach controls.

Heavies sometimes fly "SR" routes. I believe it stands for Special Routes, but we tend to think of them as "Slow Routes." However, to a civilian, a C-130 barreling down on you at 200 knots, 3-500 ft AGL, would certainly get your attention, and be plenty fast.

BDGERJMN

Great explanation. One would think this information would be drilled into the PP training since those are the genav aviators who would most likely be affected by VR/IR routes. Then again I would bet most of the CFI's out there aren't well versed on this topic either.

kronan

don't have one with me, but the VR/IR routes used to be displayed on a sectional. Of course, they were a black line versus the actual corridor.

FWIW, an IR route is flown at low level high speed IFR. Can't be fun flying that low w/out needing the 5 miles of vis a VR route requires

UAL T38 Phlyer

Yeah, I mentioned that (Sectionals) in the previous post. The centerlines are also shown on mil IFR low charts, but I can't remember if Jeppesen does the same--I kind of think not.