holding pattern
03-11-2009 | 02:05 PM
#1
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From: holding pattern
holding pattern
Question for someone who is/was both a USAF pilot and an airline pilot regarding holding pattern entry:
I realize that either the AIM procedure or the AFM 11-217 holding pattern entry procedure will keep you in protected airspace, i.e. it doesn't matter in terms of safety. I also realize that the AIM is not federal law. I further realize that that, measured in degrees, the odds are against it happening. But, consider the question in a civilian checkride sense (with either the FAA, a designated pilot examiner, or an airline check airman). Can you bust a check for, say, using a teardrop entry outside the 70-degree sector that the FAA authorizes? Or perhaps if you drive out the teardrop course using >30 degrees away from the inbound course (USAF gives you 45 degrees)? Inquiring minds want to know.
zach
I realize that either the AIM procedure or the AFM 11-217 holding pattern entry procedure will keep you in protected airspace, i.e. it doesn't matter in terms of safety. I also realize that the AIM is not federal law. I further realize that that, measured in degrees, the odds are against it happening. But, consider the question in a civilian checkride sense (with either the FAA, a designated pilot examiner, or an airline check airman). Can you bust a check for, say, using a teardrop entry outside the 70-degree sector that the FAA authorizes? Or perhaps if you drive out the teardrop course using >30 degrees away from the inbound course (USAF gives you 45 degrees)? Inquiring minds want to know.
zach
03-11-2009 | 04:16 PM
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Question for someone who is/was both a USAF pilot and an airline pilot regarding holding pattern entry:
I realize that either the AIM procedure or the AFM 11-217 holding pattern entry procedure will keep you in protected airspace, i.e. it doesn't matter in terms of safety. I also realize that the AIM is not federal law. I further realize that that, measured in degrees, the odds are against it happening. But, consider the question in a civilian checkride sense (with either the FAA, a designated pilot examiner, or an airline check airman). Can you bust a check for, say, using a teardrop entry outside the 70-degree sector that the FAA authorizes? Or perhaps if you drive out the teardrop course using >30 degrees away from the inbound course (USAF gives you 45 degrees)? Inquiring minds want to know.
zach
I realize that either the AIM procedure or the AFM 11-217 holding pattern entry procedure will keep you in protected airspace, i.e. it doesn't matter in terms of safety. I also realize that the AIM is not federal law. I further realize that that, measured in degrees, the odds are against it happening. But, consider the question in a civilian checkride sense (with either the FAA, a designated pilot examiner, or an airline check airman). Can you bust a check for, say, using a teardrop entry outside the 70-degree sector that the FAA authorizes? Or perhaps if you drive out the teardrop course using >30 degrees away from the inbound course (USAF gives you 45 degrees)? Inquiring minds want to know.
zach
03-11-2009 | 07:18 PM
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From: A-300 F/O
Program it into the FMS and let it decide how to enter, then it is the software programmer's issue.
I don't think it matters how you enter as long as you stay in protected airspace. But Chapter 5 of the AIM and the Chapter 10 of FAA instrument flying handbook on holding both say the same thing word for word about holding.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...ers%208-11.pdf
While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The way the AF reads things these days, recommended turns into a thou shalt. What does the FAA say about recommended? Probably just like any FSDO when you ask a question, the answer will depend on which check airman you ask and what his background is.
I don't think it matters how you enter as long as you stay in protected airspace. But Chapter 5 of the AIM and the Chapter 10 of FAA instrument flying handbook on holding both say the same thing word for word about holding.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...ers%208-11.pdf
While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The way the AF reads things these days, recommended turns into a thou shalt. What does the FAA say about recommended? Probably just like any FSDO when you ask a question, the answer will depend on which check airman you ask and what his background is.
03-12-2009 | 02:46 PM
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From: holding pattern
03-12-2009 | 03:33 PM
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No Zach, yours is a very good and often pondered question. My comment was for Tweetdriver. He and I fly in the same reserve unit. He's not as good looking as me, but he normally eats questions like that up, leaving no doubts. He seemed kinda wishy washy about his answer, which disappointed me huge. He is a very smart dude. Mabye he's on meds or something. BTW, when I was an evaluator, I tried really hard not to apply my personal techniques to questions like that. Technique is technique. Procedure, procedure.
03-12-2009 | 04:21 PM
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From: A-300 F/O
It is hard to teardrop a GTP. The SOF station computer counter usually requires a parallel entry around the desk to access the chair. If the SOF station and the Tower Watch Sup's positionsChair were reversed, then I could enter direct.
03-13-2009 | 06:10 PM
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From: Legacy FO
Program it into the FMS and let it decide how to enter, then it is the software programmer's issue.
I don't think it matters how you enter as long as you stay in protected airspace. But Chapter 5 of the AIM and the Chapter 10 of FAA instrument flying handbook on holding both say the same thing word for word about holding.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...ers%208-11.pdf
While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The way the AF reads things these days, recommended turns into a thou shalt. What does the FAA say about recommended? Probably just like any FSDO when you ask a question, the answer will depend on which check airman you ask and what his background is.
I don't think it matters how you enter as long as you stay in protected airspace. But Chapter 5 of the AIM and the Chapter 10 of FAA instrument flying handbook on holding both say the same thing word for word about holding.
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...ers%208-11.pdf
While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to enter the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA.
The way the AF reads things these days, recommended turns into a thou shalt. What does the FAA say about recommended? Probably just like any FSDO when you ask a question, the answer will depend on which check airman you ask and what his background is.
To the original poster ... read this (skip to page 13)
http://www.afsc.af.mil/shared/media/...071016-135.pdf
-Fatty
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