Hello everyone,

I am a newly minted UH-60M aviator and am interested in becoming dual rated early on in my career to further my job opportunities 6, 10, 20+ years from now. As it looks with budget cuts, the fact that my gaining unit is coming back from deployment soon, and the decade long war is winding down, flight hours and opportunities to progress and make pilot-in-command as a Hawk driver are looking very dismal.

Because of this, I am looking for more ways to diversify my experience and make myself more promotable (especially as a warrant officer since the promotion rates are very, very low).

Each year the Army holds a board for a fixed-wing transition to become qualified in the C-12/DH-7/UC-35. I am very tempted to apply this summer and see if I can get Uncle Sugar to pay for more training. This year they're specifically seeking junior grade warrant officers, so I figure I might as well test my luck. I have a few questions --

Are there any active, reserve, or ARNG Army fixed-wing aviators on this board that can talk about the mission (either SIGINT or OSA), opportunities, and quality of life?

One of the 'requirements' for this years board is having 24-months time on station (PCS eligible) to attend the FWMEQC/C-12 AQC. Is that a hard and fast rule, or is there, like many things, a waiver that can be attained for it?

I've browsed websites like APTAP and ArmyFixedWing(dot)com, and there's very little information about what the job itself. Hopefully there's some lurkers here that can provide some input. Thanks!

 

I flew C23`s in the Guard. One of the best jobs I ever had. We flew all over Iraq doing all kinds of stuff. If you are fortunate enough to get a slot, I say it is a no brainer. I flew 60`s for years, and I love that aircraft but it won't get you much as far as jobs go.

Back in the day, it was nearly impossible for a junior pilot to get fixed wing or a chance to try out for the 160th. That has all changed in the last decade or so.

I saw the bleeding back in 93 under Clinton. I think things are going to get very ugly now...

 

Atlas Shrugged,

Thanks for the response! I hear you about WOJGs getting fixed-wing slots and 160th SOAR assessments. I know four WO1s straight out of flight school (two of which are street-to-seaters) who tried out for green platoon and got accepted. I know yet another WO1 who, while in flight school, got a call out of the blue from the Student Management Office. They offered him a fixed-wing follow-on course over the phone. He said yes, was interviewed the next day, and got the position. He found it more strange than I did, especially since his flight school credentials weren't exemplary from his peers.

Very cool about the C-23 assignment in the Guard! It's such a niche community in Army aviation, it seems like it has a lot of perks simply out of its obscurity. I've only met one other Sherpa pilot and he had nothing but good things to say about the aircraft. If you're okay with sharing, I'd be interested in hearing about some of the types of missions you flew.

Things are getting pretty ugly as of right now. A lot of it is unfounded talk, but the facts that are out there are looking pretty scary in terms of training and unit readiness.

 

Whether you get a fixed wing slot or not you should absolutely get a fixed wing rating added to your FAA commercial pilot license! While I was an enlisted Helicopter mechanic, I used the military flying clubs while on active duty to get trained for my commercial and instrument ratings in an airplane.
It was 25 years ago and I have no idea if there are military flying clubs that exist anymore but there are certainly local flight schools!

The "add-on" training should not be too expensive! Theoretically, you can get a commercial add on in 50 flight hours of training. The hard part is getting total fixed wing time afterwards. You could always get a flight instructor rating and teach on the side at the flying club or buy a Cessna 150. Also, if you already hold a commercial pilot license in rotorcraft, the training for a fixed wing commercial should be a tax deductible expense (check with your CPA). I have seen way too many Army helicopter pilots in the civilian world struggle to make a living flying helicopters commercially! All the best!

 

I already have a private fixed-wing rating, so the add-ons shouldn't cost too much. That would be really good news if I could write off my instrument and commercial add-ons; I'll have to look more into that. The Army doesn't have any flying clubs still around (that I'm aware of), though I believe the USAF might have a few.

So true.

There's a glut of Army helicopter pilots I work with who did multiple tours in Afghanistan that can't even meet the flight hour requirements for the few available civilian EMS or corporate jobs. When you consider the number of helicopter pilots produced by the other branches, along with the civilian trained aviators, helicopter jobs are a bit of a crapshoot.

 

Do you have a Commercial license? Speak with an accountant!

 

I do have a commercial license. That sounds like an interesting way to make my dollar go a little bit further. Thanks, hypoxia!

 

That's great! Since you have a commercial rotorcraft and private single engine land, you should be able to get a commercial multi-engine instrument add-on rating very quickly! For the Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) multi-engine land you need 1500 hours total flight time with a good portion of your helicopter time that will count! (check the exact requirement of PIC, X-country, instrument, etc.) I think the regional airlines will probably relax their fixed wing total time if you get an ATP multi-engine land. Best of Luck!

 

I flew Army Fixed Wing active duty (One GS and one RC tour). I got out in 2010 and then flew Army Fixed Wing for two and a half years as a DAC. I still have plenty of friends in the active duty community. Feel free to PM me.

First, if you want to maximize your civilian hiring options or fly for the airlines, apply for the FWMEQC. You'll have RW options and FW options. As a FW guy, hours should come quick compared to your RW units.

When it comes to promotions keep in mind that you are competing against your year group, not the folks one or two or ten years senior to you. Their promotion rates, and the experiences they had to live to be competitive will be different than yours. If you are a PIC, have combat time, have a track, have a variety of schools and your peers don't, and you excelled in your work, you'll probably have a good chance at promoting on time.

Find a couple of trusted senior WO's to mentor you. Since you asked this forum for advice and information, here is my take. I would be cautions about going FW too early in your WO career with cut-throat promotion rates. FW units are typically very senior, with W4 company IP's sharing time as company SP's and W4 company safety officers. If you want to get promoted and retire as a W4 or W5, first you have to make W3. When very senior guys are doing all the hard jobs in the company it may be difficult to build a strong stack of OER's for the board. You want OER's that show you progressed quickly to PIC in your advanced aircraft, flew lots of challenging missions, logged lots of hours, mentored junior aviators. (Keep in mind that Army Aviation is all about the RW mission, FW is a tiny portion and at some point in your career you may have to go back to the RW community). You should want to then focus on tracking, and get a good couple of years excelling in your chosen field. It was very rare to see W2's in my two Battalions, but the ones we got were RW IP's, and stellar aviators.

As far as the units go, expect to fly gray King Airs for 3-6 years. There are very limited GS/VIP slots for active duty folks. The WO's that go FW are almost all phenominal aviators and most are all great people in general. We don't eat our young, we are very professional and skilled, we look out for each other, the units are close knit, and we want everyone to be a PIC as soon as possible. Deployments are't difficult; when you're home, you're really home, not in the field. If you can make it to Germany to fly VIP from Stuttgart or Wiesbaden you'll have hit the first Army FW Jackpot. If you get to the Gulfstreams you'll have hit the last Jackpot. It never hurts to volunteer to fly Dash 7's, as they always seem to be short pilots. It's a good bargaining chip to get a UC-35 or Slick C-12 assignment.

 

If you get the chance to go fixed wing then you should absolutely go for it. I did OH-58D’s for 9 years before making the jump over to fixed wing. Since then I have flown the RC-12 (King Air), EO-5 (Dash 7), and UC-35 (Cessna Citation). It is a move that I have not regretted a single day since I made it.

One of the other posters mentioned that the fixed wing community can be very senior, and I can attest to that. I just came from Wiesbaden Germany and at one point we had 6 CW5’s in the company. You heard that right, in the COMPANY. With that many senior guys in the company you end up with CW4’s doing jobs like supply and if you’re really lucky, safety or perhaps flight ops.

With regard to promotion rates, nobody knows what the future holds. I can tell you right now at least the fixed wing community is VERY fat on CW5’s. Because of that, last year’s board placed a ceiling of 4 on the number of people they would promote to CW5. Given the number of people that were up for the promotion board, that was an 8.5% selection rate.

Nobody knows what Army Aviation may look like in the next 5-10 years. Just make the best decisions you can for you and your family. Hopefully it will all work out for you. PM if you need more info.