satpak77

For the mil guys

Lets say you have a non-combat mission, in other words fly supplies Point A to Point B in a non-war zone. Nobody is wounded, getting shot at, or being evac'ed. This is fly pallets of pallets Point A to Point B.

Mission is requested by a 4-Star General. Weather is bad at departure point and the AC/PIC tells 4-star that flight will be pushed back until tomorrow due to weather.

General says gee, isn't your jet equipped with radar son ? etc. What kinds pilots is AF producing now? Etc. AC/PIC politely stands his ground.

If this scenario (you get the point, the exact players or dynamics in the real world may be different) played out, is the AC/PIC's career "at stake" or is he called in to write memos or explain his decision, etc ?

Just curious

KC10 FATboy

I have flown numerous "high profile" flights with officers of all ranks and political figures higher than General. I have turned back in flight due to mechanical issues and have canceled flights due to weather. At no point did I get any push back from anyone (except for one flight where the 3-star showed up late for the flight, and the 3-star's aide second guessed everything we did to get him back on time, but the aide just didn't understand).

Everyone else was disappointed in the bad news; however, I was professional and told them we've exhausted all avenues and that "it is not safe to continue flight or to go fly". All of them accepted my decision without question. After every one of these problem flights (except for the 3-star .... cough cough moseley cough cough), my crew and I received great praise from the distinguished visitor(s).

Does your scenario happen. Yes. Has it happened to me, no.

galaxy flyer

When I was a OG/CC, I had a crew call "safety of flight" due to fatigue during the run up to the Second Iraq War. Next morning, I had an irate 2-star screaming in my ear about why my crew were screwing off, not flying. I knew the AC, a tough cookie who wouldn't stop without a damned good reason, if he said "tired" I knew it was true. 2-star demands to know what I'm gonna do. "Nothing, til I get the facts". "I want to speak with the Wing Commander"; "fine, here's his number". He hangs up, I ring the Boss, give my story. Boss says, don't worry, I'll handle it. Never heard another word about it. True, my Wing King did trust me and I never let him down.

The military is ruled as much by rules and safety as the airlines. Throwing people away is no more acceptable.

GF

Droopy

I wasn't an OG like Galaxy Flyer, but as a SQ/DO I had more issues with folks NOT calling uncle when they should have. I've had good commanders and bad, and with one exception, I always knew they had my back if I said no. 99.9% of the time it's black and white in the regs anyway. The others are why we wear wings, and even if it means your career, you can start another as long as you're still alive.

Droopy

satpak77

good stories guys, thank you. maybe others will post some more

highsky

Agree with you 100%.

I'll start off by admitting that I'm an unabashedly Lean-Forward Officer when it comes to my Country's Defense. ESPECIALLY Post-9/11. And at times to the disappointment of my entire 17-Man Crew, I pressed the Mission for God & Country.

The American People pay me to exploit and exhaust ALL opportunities and resources at my disposal to put the airplane, aircrew, and load on target, on time, in one piece. It's their Mission, not mine. And that's exactly what I do. But on those many occasions in AMC when on time, on target, safely in one piece can't happen, for WHATEVER REASON IN MY OPINION as AC, not once have I ever gotten any pushback from any level of command.

In the '03 time-frame we had one malingering D-bag AC in my Squadron who would do anything in the World to avoid flying anywhere the shooting was going on. He pulled out the Safety of Flight Card one too many times for the TACC/OG. After that, there was a lengthy Decision-tree matrix that was humiliating and long, FOR EVERYONE. M. Semo was single-handedly responsible for that take-back of AMC Aircraft Commander Authority.

Ftrooppilot

C-141 Aircraft Commander line check (7 day trip). The Dover Chief of Maintenance (Col) went ballistic in my cockpit because I would not depart with the copilots interphone inoperative. He said get it fixed at Elmendorf. I refused because the MEL said I could not depart home station without an operative interphone system. He said, "You only sit four feet apart. If you delay this flight I'm going to address your judgment at the Aircraft Commanders Certification Board." I refused. He stormed off the airplane "muttering." We were delayed while maintenance fixed the problem.

The Check Pilot sitting on the bunk at the back of the cockpit later told me that if I had taken the aircraft (with inop interphone) , he would have "failed " me the minute I started an engine.

USMCFLYR

And here I was thinking I was one of the few with week long checkrides
Great story FTroop! Any chance that it was a set-up to see if you would cave under the pressure of a maintenance push even though it was clearly covered in the MELs - or was it really as bad as it sounds ?

galaxy flyer

satpak77

Remember, just about General officer wears wings, has been in your position at one time in his career. In my cited case the Wing Commander wore a 10,000 hour in most of AMC's planes, had been in every position north of squadron co-pilot. The 2-star had similar experience, but pressures of the job got to him for the moment. Compare that to an airline station manager, corporate CEO on his jet or a charter customer, very, very different situation. I say that recognizing that many GOs don't have huge totals flying time, but they have been there in the dark and stormy cockpit.

My first wing commander in F-100s flew P-47s and P-51s over Europe--pretty hard to BS him and he knew exactly what it was like to be scared in plane.

OTOH, I was getting a HQ ASEV check in Aviano during the Kosovo dust-up. Cleared the runway, as asked by tower, and faced a forest of planes, helos and obstacles to get to parking. Backtracking was not an option as fighters were headed off on real missions. We snaked our way down the parallel with very marginal clearances (10' required); crew outside checking. When my E-9 engineer got upstairs the evaluator asked what the clearances were; "10', Major!" was the answer. The major replied, "you know the book answer, what's the truth?". "Oh, 4' or 5' at times". And he was lying. You do what you have to do and be willing to answer for it, if it goes wrong.

GF

satpak77

good points from all, thank you