DegeReguard

Military guys,

Id like to ask for advice on an issue. I am senority and experience qualified for an upgrade class running in October, but i have a muta 5 drill right smack in the middle of the month that, with travel days (which my company requires I take), may potentially cost me three days of the official ground school portion of upgrade training. These are a thursday, friday, and monday.

Im not certain the official upgrade class schedule for October as of yet and whether this conflict is a certain or not but it is likely. My company says in order to upgrade i must be available and not attend the scheduled drill, however this drill is rife marksmanship and my chain of command says "no", i can not do a suta or have any exused absense and that my employer is required to accommodate my drills and not deny me a promotion on those grounds regardless so i shouldnt be asking for a suta for that purpose anyways.

My chain of command is correct, i mist qualify with my rifle, it is at the core of being an american soldier, and i really enjoy my drills and want to attend anyway.

My question is then, is my company in the right to deny my upgrade on the grounds that my drill will cause me to potentially miss those three days? Is there any recourse i or my company have with reguard to accommodateing me for missing those days but still allowing me to upgrade by allowing me to make up that classroom time or just studying the material on my own time and passing my freakin' oral and checkride anyway?

Is refusing an upgrade that i am otherwise qualified for on the grounds that i have mandatory military service for a small fraction of the month considered unlawful discrimination for denial of a promotion to a service member?

How can i approach my company in a respectful, proactive way, to state my case or help my case for upgrade?

Except for those drill dates i am willing to work weekends, extra hours every day, have zero days off, whatever it takes to get the training done legally and fluidly...

I am a non-flying enlisted member of the army national guard.

Thanks.

UAL T38 Phlyer

I'm not an expert, but:

1. I had MUTAs moved or excused when I was in a long training course.

2. I think your company is only obligated to give you the next available training date. Not sure how that would affect your effective-date.

If you intend to get a retirement out of the Army, DON'T get a bad year.

If you aren't a lifer, then you have to decide if the increased pay of Capt is worth the loss of MUTA pay.

tunes

i'm probably wrong but i believe if you drop mil leave the only obligation the company has it to put you in the next available upgrade class.

rickair7777

Sort of. If the music stops and they're not running classes anymore, you would have a legal case to require them to do a special class for you...if you forced the issue. Most likely they would just pay you as a captain until the next class if you forced the issue but that wouldn't make you whole if you're at a regional and need pic time.

Reality in this case...This is one of those rare times when you need to accommodate the airline's schedule. Either move the drills or do a later upgrade class. Unless your unit is working up for a deployment in the near term, they need to recognise that this is one of those things when they need to be flexible.

Flyinhawaiian

Take the upgrade, make up the drill...that's what I'd do. Your chain of command should always support your decision to progress in your civilian career (within reason).

Slim11

Retired ARNG and former company commander here.

First, thanks for what you are trying to do here which is the right thing. It's rare these days to see someone being proactive.

Here are the problems your commander is confronted with...

Your unit is scheduled for weapons qualification on a set date. His mission is to get as many soldiers qualified in a relatively small window (IDT weekend) so his unit maintains readiness. This includes you. In some states like Texas, this can be accomplished throughout the training year. If your unit is in a state like Michigan or Ohio, weather is a consideration.

Your situation is unique in that non-flying ARNG/ANG units usually don't have to deal with airline flight crew members. You have mandatory training with the ARNG vs. mandatory training with your airline. That situation just doesn't happen very often. Your unit and your airline are in the classic rock. vs. hard place scenario. I was in the same situation when I upgraded at Comair. However, I timed my upgrade so as to avoid this type of situation. I was a staff officer at that point in my career.

Have you inquired about doing your weapons qualification with another unit following completion of upgrade training? Your unit should, but is not required too, be able to make this kind of arrangement.

If your airline denies your upgrade because a conflict with mandatory military training, rescheduling your upgrade training solves the denial. Your training was rescheduled but not denied. If your unit refuses to help out, they are failing/refusing to recognize the demands of civilian employers here. There is an implied need here for ARNG/ANG units to recognize the citizen-soldier concept, too. I had to fight that with my battalion command a few times when I was a company CO.

PM me if you'd like more detail or any assistance. Good luck, soldier!

FEtoFO

I have no experience with the Army, but your unit should work with you on it. I was able to get out of a 2 week TDY because of new hire training this year, so you CoC should help you out. Also check out USERRA, because if you can't get out of it, then your company should pay protect you.

kme9418

It's a two way street. Mil duty takes priority...if you want to force the issue, there are ways to order you to duty. That can work to your advantage if your civilian employer wants to press to test. However, if units don't work with their peeps with a little give and take, it will all play out in retention and participation rates.

SaltyDog

DegeReguard
You said “My company says in order to upgrade i must be available and not attend the scheduled drill..” is pretty damaging to your airline. Get that in writing by asking them to confirm this decision via email to a an appropriate company official (Chief Pilot, Training manager, etc responsible for this decision)
Remember this: USERRA protects your military service no matter how inconvenient for you OR your employer. Agree with Slim11 if able, get the two parties to agree in a mutually beneficial solution. However, your civilian Captain seniority based awarded position is protected the moment you return from military service. No matter how inconvenient it is for your employer. Your employer may try to suggest they cannot train you, wait etc. If they do, seriously consider filing a complaint with the DOL VETS office. Let your employer know that is your intent as well as your union Military committee if they have this group. This is fair to allow them to do the lawful thing and get you trained to your earned job protected by USERRA in the collectively known Escalator clause. If they continue to refuse, more detail for your complaint. Guessing company lawyers/HR folks will be seriously reviewing USERRA to ensure their position is legal and defensible. Airline pilots have it the easiest in most jobs regarding the Escalator clause, particularly if you have a seniority based system. Ensure your bid reflects a Captain position prior to military service, show DOL VETS on the complaint your class date before military service and your position is factually demonstrated.
Looking at the Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve (ESGR) FAQ’s that is designed to help Employers (Company) understand the USERRA Statute and their obligations to us as Employees.

Employer Support of the Guard and Reserve > USERRA > Frequently Asked Questions
What position is the employee entitled to upon reemployment?
“As a general rule, the employee is entitled to reemployment in the job position that he or she would have attained with reasonable certainty if not for the absence due to military service. This position is known as the escalator position. The principle behind the escalator position is that, if not for the period of military service, the employee could have been promoted (or, alternatively, demoted, transferred, or laid off) due to intervening events. The escalator principle requires that the employee be reemployed in a position that reflects with reasonable certainty the pay, benefits, seniority, and other job perks that he or she would have attained if not for the period of service.”

I’m guessing you’re in a union and have a seniority based system, so as said above, we have an easy way to prove the “escalator” position and so does the employer. I recommend always leaving your bids on file depending on contract to ensure your airline knows your “escalator” choices before military service to remove any misunderstanding. In your case, it was already determined. Airline cannot deny your Captain status upon return.
Here is another ESGR FAQ for your airline:

Does the reemployment position include elements such as seniority, status, and rate of pay?

“Yes. The reemployment position includes the seniority, status, and rate of pay that an employee would ordinarily have attained in that position given his or her job history, including prospects for future earnings and advancement. The employer must determine the seniority rights, status, and rate of pay as though the employee had been continuously employed during the period of service.
The seniority rights, status, and pay of an employment position include those established (or changed) by a collective bargaining agreement, employer policy, or employment practice. In particular, the employee’s status in the reemployment position could include opportunities for advancement, general working conditions, job location, shift assignment, rank, responsibility, and geographical location. If an opportunity for promotion, or eligibility for promotion that the employee missed during service is based on a skills test or examination, then the employer should give him or her a reasonable amount of time to adjust to the employment position and then give a skills test or examination.”

IMO, yours is an easy circumstance. Kudos trying to make both military and airline happy, but you are the protected party in this three way relationship of shared employee and soldier. Train with your Army unit if you must, your airline has little to fall back denying you your upgrade (unless your displaced through a furlough or cutbacks that apply to others of your seniority) PM me like Slim11 offered if desire

DegeReguard

I spoke to my chief pilot again about the issue when I dropped the bid off and he said that it didn't look like drill would conflict with the ground school portion of the upgrade training and that they should be able to schedule sim/gfs/oral etc around my drill especially since its only 5 days and the sims and instructors literally run 24 hours a day 7 days a week and they are short of sim time anyway so It might even give them the break they need to get some other things caught up.

So, while I haven't officially heard anything on the award as of yet. Its my understanding that drill will not conflict with it.

as for my chain of command, I explained in full detail how airline training works and they said that our November drill would be much easier to SUTA so if all else fails and a conflict does arise, I could have the airline training rescheduled for any time in November and if I needed to I could SUTA drill on my schedule by helping out the agr guys with whatever work they need to have done. So it looks like everything will work out for now.

The next battle will be New Hire training when my career progressed, but that's a whole different animal for a few years down the road.

Thanks again for all the good advice!