Best Career Path?
10-12-2015 | 09:04 AM
#31
New Hire
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Yep, that's at least 48 more 12-hour days and 12 full weekends of work, or 96 12-hour days a year if accomplished weekdays-only...for less total money than an AGR, and a more expensive healthcare bite than an AGR or even TR. The opportunity cost is of course, centered around the homesteading angle (and that is very unit dependent) and/or the ability to quit the job for an airline gig without the potential for the military involuntarily retaining you. In times of no airline hiring, the job is coveted. In times of hiring like right now, the job is often scoffed at and difficult to sell.
This also creates an additional hardship; ARTs usually comprise supervisory positions, and that tends to make people who no one wants in those roles, end up in them by gravity and lack of better applicants, creating morale problems amongst the TR cadre and toxicity at the unit level. Very hard to get rid of an ART once he has dug his/her heels on the job. Not all ARTs are this way of course, but it's a widespread enough stigma to hold true as a generality. I've seen it first hand in the several AFRC units I've been a part of.
The biggest false economy relating to ART jobs is the proposition of making it to the MRA. That is simply intellectually dishonest when we're talking about G-pulling jobs. Perhaps one would be able to coast on a crew aircraft. Then there is of course the idea of dealing with the DOD corporate qweep (the very thing driving people into the airlines in the first place mind you) for a full 10-15 years longer than even an Active Duty guy would have to. That's a pretty tall glass in it of itself.
This also creates an additional hardship; ARTs usually comprise supervisory positions, and that tends to make people who no one wants in those roles, end up in them by gravity and lack of better applicants, creating morale problems amongst the TR cadre and toxicity at the unit level. Very hard to get rid of an ART once he has dug his/her heels on the job. Not all ARTs are this way of course, but it's a widespread enough stigma to hold true as a generality. I've seen it first hand in the several AFRC units I've been a part of.
The biggest false economy relating to ART jobs is the proposition of making it to the MRA. That is simply intellectually dishonest when we're talking about G-pulling jobs. Perhaps one would be able to coast on a crew aircraft. Then there is of course the idea of dealing with the DOD corporate qweep (the very thing driving people into the airlines in the first place mind you) for a full 10-15 years longer than even an Active Duty guy would have to. That's a pretty tall glass in it of itself.
10-12-2015 | 07:18 PM
#32
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 309
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
That's the problem. You say you are working too much but you are VOLUNTARILY working all your TPs when you don't have to. I was an ART for 5.5 years and ranged from 0-48 TPs per year. My average over 5 years was 24. Mo' money, mo' problems. A GS-13 with 0 TPs is still a 6 figure job. If you can't live on that, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem.
10-12-2015 | 09:09 PM
#33
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 863
Likes: 1
From: Center seat, doing loops to music
That's the problem. You say you are working too much but you are VOLUNTARILY working all your TPs when you don't have to. I was an ART for 5.5 years and ranged from 0-48 TPs per year. My average over 5 years was 24. Mo' money, mo' problems. A GS-13 with 0 TPs is still a 6 figure job. If you can't live on that, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem.
5.5 years puts you barely at 6 months over the min vesting period required for a FERS annuity at 60. Coincidence? I think not.
Come on brother, a little truth in advertisement goes a long ways towards credibility if you're gonna knock a guy for trying to attain income parity with an AGR when doing the exact same job working 4 extra days a month and still making less. If it were that great how come you're not an ART anymore?
10-13-2015 | 04:54 AM
#34
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 309
Likes: 1
From: A320 CA
Mo money mo problems? ....Says the guy who's no longer an ART.
5.5 years puts you barely at 6 months over the min vesting period required for a FERS annuity at 60. Coincidence? I think not.
Come on brother, a little truth in advertisement goes a long ways towards credibility if you're gonna knock a guy for trying to attain income parity with an AGR when doing the exact same job working 4 extra days a month and still making less. If it were that great how come you're not an ART anymore?
5.5 years puts you barely at 6 months over the min vesting period required for a FERS annuity at 60. Coincidence? I think not.
Come on brother, a little truth in advertisement goes a long ways towards credibility if you're gonna knock a guy for trying to attain income parity with an AGR when doing the exact same job working 4 extra days a month and still making less. If it were that great how come you're not an ART anymore?
Truth in advertising is this: 6 months past min time for vesting was just great timing in getting hired by an airline. I was trying to leave during the great airline hiring famine after being an ART for less than 2 years. Now guys only last about 2 months before they start looking for options. Currently I'm on MIL leave from an airline and doing an AGR tour where I think the pay and work rules are pretty good. I think the ART program is broken (speaking for pilots only). It's a great landing spot after active duty that offers the flexibility to get ready for your next job. For most guys nowadays, that means airlines. There are other threads that go into great detail about the pros and cons of ART vs. AGR but suffice it to say that the AGR jobs fill themselves and we can't hire/keep ARTs in this current airline hiring environment.
10-13-2015 | 09:10 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
That's the problem. You say you are working too much but you are VOLUNTARILY working all your TPs when you don't have to. I was an ART for 5.5 years and ranged from 0-48 TPs per year. My average over 5 years was 24. Mo' money, mo' problems. A GS-13 with 0 TPs is still a 6 figure job. If you can't live on that, you don't have an income problem, you have a spending problem.
I live in one of the highest cost of living areas in the nation. Unfortunately when they decided to give all ART pilots a 30% "bonus" in the form of locality in attempt to make the program competitive with the civilian sector, they forgot that some of us would get near 30% locality (or more) because of where we live anyway. If you live in Topeka where locality is 14% and you can purchase a house for less than $200k, I'm sure you're living large. A comparable dwelling in this neck of the woods is $300k+ and if you want to rent, expect $2000-2500 per month for a decent house (if you can find a decent house to rent). By the time I get done paying into my healthcare and 401k, I clear less than $69k a year on the ART side.
10-13-2015 | 11:18 AM
#36
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 545
Likes: 0
LOL... I hope you never plan to leave the aviation business to be a financial advisor. So basically you want to give up retirement points because your comfortable with your civilian salary? The mil retirement is worth more. Why wouldn't you want to maximize your mil days?
I live in one of the highest cost of living areas in the nation. Unfortunately when they decided to give all ART pilots a 30% "bonus" in the form of locality in attempt to make the program competitive with the civilian sector, they forgot that some of us would get near 30% locality (or more) because of where we live anyway. If you live in Topeka where locality is 14% and you can purchase a house for less than $200k, I'm sure you're living large. A comparable dwelling in this neck of the woods is $300k+ and if you want to rent, expect $2000-2500 per month for a decent house (if you can find a decent house to rent). By the time I get done paying into my healthcare and 401k, I clear less than $69k a year on the ART side.
I live in one of the highest cost of living areas in the nation. Unfortunately when they decided to give all ART pilots a 30% "bonus" in the form of locality in attempt to make the program competitive with the civilian sector, they forgot that some of us would get near 30% locality (or more) because of where we live anyway. If you live in Topeka where locality is 14% and you can purchase a house for less than $200k, I'm sure you're living large. A comparable dwelling in this neck of the woods is $300k+ and if you want to rent, expect $2000-2500 per month for a decent house (if you can find a decent house to rent). By the time I get done paying into my healthcare and 401k, I clear less than $69k a year on the ART side.
How is the military retirement more? Your going to have the same amount as the guy next to you at 60 either way. You just get there quicker. It must be nice to have 2 retirements at the end of the day. Why is being an ART so bad?
10-13-2015 | 01:55 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
From: left seat CRJ (again!)
Retired ARNG and a ground-pounder.
I have to ask these two questions...
First, how rapidly can you get to ATP minimums at your reserve unit? If you can get to ATP mins rapidly, do so. Comparing the training footprint at a regional to what you are doing now, I'd stay put. Get everything required for the ATP done ASAP.
Second, if you move to your reserve unit location, would you have to commute to an airline job? My guess is you will. Don't commute to both. If you get hired by a regional, is it an easy commute from your reserve unit? In my experience, commuting is a HUGE waste of time. The best commuting scenario is being able to drive to your airline base if you can't fly. I was a DTW-based captain for Comair and could drive from the DAY area if I couldn't get on a flight.
IMO, you'll get picked up by a major sooner if you continue doing what you're doing right now.
I have to ask these two questions...
First, how rapidly can you get to ATP minimums at your reserve unit? If you can get to ATP mins rapidly, do so. Comparing the training footprint at a regional to what you are doing now, I'd stay put. Get everything required for the ATP done ASAP.
Second, if you move to your reserve unit location, would you have to commute to an airline job? My guess is you will. Don't commute to both. If you get hired by a regional, is it an easy commute from your reserve unit? In my experience, commuting is a HUGE waste of time. The best commuting scenario is being able to drive to your airline base if you can't fly. I was a DTW-based captain for Comair and could drive from the DAY area if I couldn't get on a flight.
IMO, you'll get picked up by a major sooner if you continue doing what you're doing right now.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
