I'm perfectly aware of how organized labor works. A lifetime of watching my father as a mediator (non-airline) and politically active, with a few televised knocks to the head with picket signs asking my mother if daddy was alright, taught me a thing or two about CBAs, labor law and union history.

I wasn't insinuating clicking my heels would change DLs mickey mouse training compensation package or Southwest's "grab a muffin" intl turn ops. Of course I'm not gonna go tell them that at the interview, and I don't need to pay a premium for a g-d interview prep to remind me of the common sense behind that either.

However, I do think the "I'm just happy to have this job" can be dangerous and an insidiously concessionary attitude to have if allowed to permeate, as we turn over the seniority lists in the next decade. I'm not saying go get the picket signs as a probie, but a little bit of skepticism for the conditions and the tone management wishes to set with the HR panel, would yield a healthier and more leveraged cohort of co-workers going forward.

The fact I have a job I'm not in a rush to quit just allows me the luxury to behave that way, and I sincerely consider that attitude to be in the betterment of the profession. Having a bunch of starving regional guys elbowing each other for a dilution of conditions because at least they now finally taste living wage working conditions, is a great demographic for management to cheerlead, but not the kind of peer group I want to have sit next to me when it comes to negotiating my worth and that of those who come up behind me.

My father was right. I should have taken his advice, stayed out of union work and gone to dental school. But I got that proletariat fight in me, damn DNA you can't shake it

 

First off, saying the military "pays for your training" is misleading. They aren't paying you for your training. They are simply paying you to do your job, and learning to fly is part of that. They have plenty of guys go through training who have thousands of hours, they don't skip the training. It just not analogous.

I highly doubt that DAL/AA/UAL/SWA/FDX/UPS will ever pay for a training. If it ever does come down to ab-initio hiring (god I hope it doesn't), the candidate will pay for it. This is what jetBlue's program looks like and how it works in many parts of Europe. Or you might see the majors fund the training, but the candidate will sign a contract to fly for a wholly owned regional for 5 years and the company will deduct the cost from their paycheck until it is paid in full. If one quits, they will owe the entire amount plus 18% interest or something. This will be an additional revenue stream for the company. Kind of like how a car dealer makes most of its money off of financing.

Additionally, in five to ten years, there will still be lots of talent available at regionals, LCC's and from the military. With the recent uptick in salaries, young adults will again start flocking to the career like in the 90's, it just takes time.

 

In 5 to 10 years, a lot of the regionals will most likely be absorbed by the majors and the LLC's will need to pay within 10-15% of the Legacies in order to keep from losing new hires looking for a stepping stone.


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UAL pays for hotels and 90 hrs a month pay through IOE. Hitting the line is actually a significant pay cut.

 

Same with AA.

I think Cliff was referring to airlines paying for PPC, Commercial, instrument, CFI etc, not pay while in airline specific training.

 

Rog. I was referring back to the statement from hindsight that the airlines don't pay for hotels and that training pay sucks. Cheers...

 

Was there an "insert agenda here" sign on this thread?

 

For those USN folks looking to retire, we have recently heard that typical retirement waivers such as Time in Grade and Retirement at Lesser Grade are being disapproved. I would also expect that requests for retirements that are "mid-tour" to also be disapproved. Anyone that is retiring can expect retirement orders 3-6 months from retirement date. This means your approved retirement orders may not actually drop until INSIDE your terminal leave date.

This is gouge and hear-say from folks that heard it from someone that may have attended a meeting or teleconference from somebody that may have heard of BUPERS during a conversation at one point in time and in no way shape or form is gospel.

 

Is electricity cheap where you live? Thanks for the shallow and tiresome political discussion; like most such things, it can be summarized by, "it's not my fault, it's somebody else to blame."

I knew UA captains back in the seventies--they took in fewer than 100 of ab initio pilots and it didn't work then. The requirement was to get a 4-year degree and CPL on their own, then UA brought them on board. Well, you can't do that anymore due to the ATP rule. They are, and will be, plenty of pilots for the majors. The regionals? Not so much, so good-bye to them.

I think the famous Rick Dubinsky of UA ESOP fame was one of those guys. Could be wrong, stand to be corrected.

GF

 

Spot on. I got to experience this in the Navy during several hiring waves from both sides of the table. The cycle of recruit and train pilots is a time late process for the critical path of having enough Department Heads. So they surge , then have a slowdown, start letting folks leave for any reason, progress to early outs and retention boards, then realize they are right back to being undermanned for...Department Heads. During the Lost Decade, almost the entire group of Naval Aviation Flags drank the kool Aid of "we don't have a pilot retention problem anymore". Have seen these briefs, asked pointed questions during them, and hotly debated this over beers and at conferences trying to persuade leadership there was a problem. Flags are smart folks first and foremost, but they, like all their mentors, don't grasp the problem. And their AD bias is strong in that they all stayed and it worked out great for them.

So if you are in the Navy, and are going to separate or retire, for your own protection, play by the letter of BUPERS guidelines on sending in your letter. Yes, you may get knocked on your Fitrep, get pulled from your job, or a few other unpleasantries for being a "quitter". Sad, but true. You can survive it. Your departure Fitrep from AD will be read by any Reserve Board as the normal AD sour grapes for somebody pulling chocks. Got one of those. Your retirement request can illicit similar antics, but who cares what they write about you when you leave. Have one of those too. The prime directive is if you are leaving have your act together and plan in place. Neither your Skipper nor the Bureau may be on your side, and in fact may be under pressure from their boss to meet manning or crew goals. So you need to read and understand the rules, and not listen to ready room gouge on what LT Door did last year. Call separations and retirements in the Bureau and ask questions, not your detailer until you are ready to share your plans. You don't need to be a "stand up guy", you just need to play by the letter of the Instruction. Then go live the rest of your life. And don't be shocked when your old Skipper, DH's, and friends reach out to you for help on transitioning.

Got a Lot of those calls and emails.