Netjets Upgrade Times
 

Hey guys/gals, anyone know the date of hire for the most jr captain award? The last award. Thanks!


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Looks like there's a May 2006 pilot in upgrade training right now.... I don't see anyone else more junior.

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I would put money on 18-20 year SICs.

Granted, if they ever hire the upgrade time would probably be shorter for them.

That's probably not far off...

Hiring for the bottom churn won't have an affect on upgrades. Guys either need to leave or the fleet needs to grow. I was there, I was young, and there was an even younger crop of Captains who had fled the regionals after 2001. It didn't take long to realize that we were hired as career FO's. Even in a good economy NetJets isn't going to double the fleet and grow to 1,000 airframes. The only hope of an upgrade is to try to outlive the guys senior to you. My analysis of the job was that it was a dead end career unless you want to be jerking gear on a Citation for the next two decades. My opinion is that anyone who goes there who hasn't retired from somewhere else is a damn fool.

Yea I agree. Honestly even with the airlines going though hell right now, it wouldn't shock me if upgrade times are better at all of them, than NJA.

Friend of mine was within the top 10 pilots with one of the big three. Had his pick of the litter. Retired and went to NJ. Sure looked strange to have a CA 35 years the FO’s junior. He knew he would never fly in the left seat.

My retirement plan includes lots of golf and free time, not yanking gear for a thirty something but I am still on my first wife, only have one paid for house, and no boat.

Yep, the last thing I am doing at 65 is taking another job, especially NJA. What a brutal job to start at 65 lol.

He has an addiction. He just loves flying. If I were him, I would get a 172 and fly some place for lunch a couple of times a week.

More like he loves abuse. If you love flying, buy a cool plane and go flying lol.

LOL

In the same situation here Seneca.
Live life lean, reap the rewards down the road.

My sentiments, exactly. At some point in my career, I decided if I cannot run my show, I don’t want to be there.

While I can't disagree much with the forever FO prognosis for those that are here already, there will likely be much shorter upgrade times in the future with the lack of hiring and ageing pilot demographic. There are currently about 2400 pilots on the list and there is a pretty good chance over 1000 are gone over the next decade now that the money and retirement savings have improved enough for pilots to save enough to escape. I am not saying to rush in, just that while it sucks for the forever FOs, it simply can't be as bad for those hired in the future.

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I am sure hiring isn't happening, but any talk of downgrades? I can't imagine all those frivolous upgrades they did are feeling too good right about now from a company standpoint.

No talk of that whatsoever. The class they are running now for new captains was originally going to be in April I believe. They aren't announcing any more classes, but they are now honoring the captain awards they made in the spring. No way they would do that if they were planning on downgrades. No more LOAs allowed without a good reason also now that flying is picking up quite a bit- 75 to 80% of 2019 numbers now. There are over 1200 new customers this year picking up the slack of those who are choosing to fly less hours than before.

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If there were more places to go, we would be stoooopid busy. A LOT of folks who were always on the fence about affording private and used airline first class instead have altered their decision tree. In my view, once restrictions start to lift and more destinations reopen, charter, fractional, and whole ownership numbers will be impressive.

Now, when that will be depends on so many things and I still don't have a crystal ball.

Yea not having a place to go is really what is causing all of this. Once stuff opens up more, people will travel.

In our business, it is definitely a limiting factor. Not the ONLY factor.

It is also a contributing issue to the slow rebound of airline traffic.

To pretend otherwise is not being realistic.

Yep, that and the fact that no other countries want us right now doesn't help.

The super rich always find somewhere to take them. This year they have been doing French Polynesia, Turkey, and Croatia.

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I’ve heard good things about Croatia : )

Upgrades will continue to be slow for another 5-6 years. Once people start leaving (note, I say leaving because people don’t retire from Netjets), I still don’t know how quick it will be. While NJ does have hundreds of guys close to or 60+, there are still probably 1,000+ late 40’s/early 50’s guys who are not going anywhere and won’t leave until after 2030 at the earliest, have golden handcuffs, one of the reasons I left and haven’t looked back. Movement at NJ is just painfully slow. There are a lot of folks who don’t know/don’t want to let go. They want to go straight from the cockpit to the casket.

I had the same experience at NJ. It's a very good flying job, but because of their hiring cycle, where they grew rapidly in the mid 90's, don't expect to have a quick upgrade to the left seat, or to the desirable aircraft, for a long time. Too many pilots in their mid-40's to early 50's that have aren't retiring any time soon.

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You think when hiring off the street picks up with the majors (2025+) will there be a chunk of NJ CA that will make the move? Or will they be so golden handcuffed they will not leave?

After this event, I doubt you’ll see many CA’s making the move, especially those middle 40’s or older, only slowing down upgrades even further.

Looking at one of the last seniority lists, you see so many senior guys names, under 500 seniority, that are under 55, that are not going anywhere, as a guy in the 500’s seniority back when I left, it was disheartening, because even the guys 60+ in this seniority range, like [EDIT: SECURITY], etc, etc, are not going to leave anytime soon. And around my former date of hire (2000), sooooo many guys late 40’s/early 50’s that have 15-20 years left in them.

union released age numbers earlier this summer. About 900 pilots 58+.

There will likely be around 40% of the list retiring or losing their medicals over the next decade. There are also many very senior pilots who have a long time to go. There will probably be 20 year non voluntary SICs hired pre furlough. I am late 40s with over 250 pilots senior AND younger than me. I will never be able to be a PIC on the biggest/ bestest beast we have. I am OK with that, but people should definitely think through how their age/ seniority will likely affect their progression when deciding what is best for their future. Some did and made the jump while others are OK with what they have. Some made the jump and are now second guessing that choice while many who made the jump are happy with their choice- I have talked to friends on both sides of this over the last month. Who would have thought pilots would be happy finding out they get to stay employed at essentially half pay? Every choice is a gamble in this profession. Even starting out in it now as a younger pilot is a gamble that there will be a good job available all the way until you are able to retire.

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They can fly another 20 years too. That is the scary part...

Hahah WHAT!?!

they can but doubtful.

Over 900 58+. There are about 2400 pilots on the seniority list now. Pilots have been making enough money to save for retirement for many years now- even the SICs. Pilots will be able to afford retirement. Then there are the many that eat horribly and don't exercise and the others with bad luck that will medical out. There are many old pilots, but I don't believe that will always be the case unless the company mostly hires more old pilots.

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Making the jump is always a gamble. The ones who went to AA, Delta, United, JB, etc, the last 2-3 years are sweating a big one right now, but all cylinders were firing until January. Those of us who went to Fedex or UPS, well, just brilliant 😉. Both of these companies have been nearly recession proof, barring the unnecessary, just to **** off the pilots UPS furlough, and the trend to online is accelerating at an even faster pace than expected.

The point being, a mid 40’s+ NJ guy with 15+ years of seniority, starting over today is a very risky proposition, even facing the prospect that he/she will be flying a Challenger 350/Latitude/Longitude (largest airplane they can hold) for the better part of the remaining of their career. Staring at that barrel helped me make my decision.

$17,500 average 401k max contribution + 50% average for say the last 15 years, $393,500 without compound interest. Say another $20k + 58% for the next 15, $474,500 again without compound interest. Let’s say an extremely disciplined person manages to have $2 MIL in the bank after all savings (401k, extra savings, etc) when turning 63-65, and again, what percentage of people in the NJ pilot population can actually achieve that? My guess less than 50%. But let’s say you were able to do it after raising 2-3 kids, traveling, living a decent life, etc. Is $2 MIL enough to retire comfortably to live an estimated 25-30 years with at least 50% pre retirement income?

I thought about this extensively over and over, and came to the conclusion that it was not nearly enough. Having almost $3 MIL+ in the bank (counting additional savings of 10 years at Captain wages of nearly $400k/year) with a $100k/year remaining lifetime pension + SS (whatever is there) is an entirely different and comfortable scenario.

You made the right choice for you (and pretty much anyone who can get hired there), but that is rather hard indeed. That said, the over 50 401K + catch up is 26K this year plus the match plus the FDP match. That is over 40K there per year not including any other savings vehicles (significant other's retirement accounts, IRAs, etc...). While that isn't going to lead to major airline, brown, or FedEx numbers, that will still lead to a comfortable retirement with a modicum of restraint. Pilots will have the money to retire from NetJets at a reasonable age with a quite reasonable amount of retirement money. I'm an SIC with a non working wife on pace to crush the 2 million you suggested (I'm sure you would have too had you stayed with the catch up savings). If this fool can do it, than just about every PIC here should be doing better, especially if they are able to do the catch up savings.

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I hope you are right, but I don't think you are. Pilots, no matter how much they save for retirement, want more money. Look at the number of retired airline pilots that continue flying after they retire. These 900 pilots over 58 only matter if they are senior to you. That's your only way to upgrade and thinking all 900 of those pilots will be off the roster in 10 years is simply wishful thinking and nothing more. You have some 80-year-old pilots on the property, and a bunch in their 70s. it's totally plausible that the majority on that list fly another 15 years at least.

Doubtful
 

[QUOTE=MinRest;3140439]I hope you are right, but I don't think you are. Pilots, no matter how much they save for retirement, want more money. Look at the number of retired airline pilots that continue flying after they retire. These 900 pilots over 58 only matter if they are senior to you. That's your only way to upgrade and thinking all 900 of those pilots will be off the roster in 10 years is simply wishful thinking and nothing more. You have some 80-year-old pilots on the property, and a bunch in their 70s. it's totally plausible that the majority on that list fly another 15 years at least.[/QUOTE

Again, Doubtful but possible. I place my bets on 9-10 year upgrade for anyone who came on within the last year, which is still a long time but better than 13-15.

Ballsy claim seeing as it hasn't been a 9 year upgrade or less, in over 10 years, and the company continues to srink the pilot group. Also make no mention of the fact that overall, the company is captain heavy. I hope you are right though, because 10 years is an eternity at those pay rates.

Were you here when the FDP started? It’s a Bet, if it happens great if not oh well, I enjoy it here. You are absolutely right 10-15 years is forever but I knew what I signed up for when I came. This job fits my family’s life style perfectly, when I make Captain I make Captain.