Ameriflight
02-12-2009, 02:10 PM
#161
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: single pilot cargo, turboprop
Posts: 484
RNav, I think you're the one missing the point. I'm sure if you ask any of our FOs why they're in the program, they're not going to tell you it's for a guaranteed interview. Instead, they'll probably tell you how much seminoles cost per hour at their local FBO, and give you a breakdown on how much money they're saving on multi time.
As far as companies wanting an FO, but not wanting to pay for them, and say that this FO program was AMF's scheme to get FOs without paying for them, you're wrong. In fact, you insult us. We're very competent flying single pilot. If an FO can fly with us without creating a hazard or a nuisance, we'll do it for a little compensation (yes, captains get paid extra for having them on the plane too).
As far as companies wanting an FO, but not wanting to pay for them, and say that this FO program was AMF's scheme to get FOs without paying for them, you're wrong. In fact, you insult us. We're very competent flying single pilot. If an FO can fly with us without creating a hazard or a nuisance, we'll do it for a little compensation (yes, captains get paid extra for having them on the plane too).
02-14-2009, 12:18 AM
#165
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: BE-1900 CA
Posts: 72
Having flown at least a couple hundred hours with several FOs in the PA31, I'd like to offer a few comments on the AMF side of the EJI program.
First, all the FOs I flew with were from overseas- they were building time prior to going back home and finishing up their certs, so there was no question of them replacing a paid position. Besides, we fly the PA31, BE99, SA227, and BE1900 single pilot, so there's never an issue of them taking the place of a paid crewmember.
Second, all the ones I have flown with were very professional, quite willing to help, well-prepared, and most importantly, made my job safer. Most of the time they chose to fly on the longest runs, the ones that go into the smallest airports with the crappiest approaches and are the most fatiguing.
I value having a second crewmember and actually using two-crew procedures, not just for the safety factor but because my next job WILL be a two-crew environment, and I want to have some experience before moving into that. I find that on any flight, if I have someone in the right seat, or if I'm riding with another pilot and acting as PNF, I fly better and think more about factors like weather, fuel, diverting, etc. That's counterintuitive, but I've found that having someone else who is part of the decision-making process helps me do a better job of making decisions.
I can't say if time-splitting or an FO program would be better, but I know that most renters don't get the experience that our FOs do- renters tend to fly in mild conditions, as time allows. We have real schedules to keep, customers to satisfy, ops specs to comply with, and we fly in almost any weather. Without considering cost, I would argue that the experience our FOs gain is more valuable than sharing a Seminole. I can't say if it's more marketable in terms of applying for a job, but I think you would learn more.
I'm not sure you would learn more by instructing- you DO learn a lot as a CFI or MEI, but it's not the same things. Instructing focuses heavily on the basics in an academic environment, and only some of that translates over. Instructing through dozens of ILS approaches from the right seat teaches something very different from making decisions when you have cargo on board, dwindling fuel reserves, and you've had to go missed on your first ILS approach.
First, all the FOs I flew with were from overseas- they were building time prior to going back home and finishing up their certs, so there was no question of them replacing a paid position. Besides, we fly the PA31, BE99, SA227, and BE1900 single pilot, so there's never an issue of them taking the place of a paid crewmember.
Second, all the ones I have flown with were very professional, quite willing to help, well-prepared, and most importantly, made my job safer. Most of the time they chose to fly on the longest runs, the ones that go into the smallest airports with the crappiest approaches and are the most fatiguing.
I value having a second crewmember and actually using two-crew procedures, not just for the safety factor but because my next job WILL be a two-crew environment, and I want to have some experience before moving into that. I find that on any flight, if I have someone in the right seat, or if I'm riding with another pilot and acting as PNF, I fly better and think more about factors like weather, fuel, diverting, etc. That's counterintuitive, but I've found that having someone else who is part of the decision-making process helps me do a better job of making decisions.
I can't say if time-splitting or an FO program would be better, but I know that most renters don't get the experience that our FOs do- renters tend to fly in mild conditions, as time allows. We have real schedules to keep, customers to satisfy, ops specs to comply with, and we fly in almost any weather. Without considering cost, I would argue that the experience our FOs gain is more valuable than sharing a Seminole. I can't say if it's more marketable in terms of applying for a job, but I think you would learn more.
I'm not sure you would learn more by instructing- you DO learn a lot as a CFI or MEI, but it's not the same things. Instructing focuses heavily on the basics in an academic environment, and only some of that translates over. Instructing through dozens of ILS approaches from the right seat teaches something very different from making decisions when you have cargo on board, dwindling fuel reserves, and you've had to go missed on your first ILS approach.
02-14-2009, 10:58 AM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 'Bus Driver Right Seat
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by TangoBar
Having flown at least a couple hundred hours with several FOs in the PA31, I'd like to offer a few comments on the AMF side of the EJI program.
First, all the FOs I flew with were from overseas- they were building time prior to going back home and finishing up their certs, so there was no question of them replacing a paid position. Besides, we fly the PA31, BE99, SA227, and BE1900 single pilot, so there's never an issue of them taking the place of a paid crewmember.
Second, all the ones I have flown with were very professional, quite willing to help, well-prepared, and most importantly, made my job safer. Most of the time they chose to fly on the longest runs, the ones that go into the smallest airports with the crappiest approaches and are the most fatiguing.
I value having a second crewmember and actually using two-crew procedures, not just for the safety factor but because my next job WILL be a two-crew environment, and I want to have some experience before moving into that. I find that on any flight, if I have someone in the right seat, or if I'm riding with another pilot and acting as PNF, I fly better and think more about factors like weather, fuel, diverting, etc. That's counterintuitive, but I've found that having someone else who is part of the decision-making process helps me do a better job of making decisions.
I can't say if time-splitting or an FO program would be better, but I know that most renters don't get the experience that our FOs do- renters tend to fly in mild conditions, as time allows. We have real schedules to keep, customers to satisfy, ops specs to comply with, and we fly in almost any weather. Without considering cost, I would argue that the experience our FOs gain is more valuable than sharing a Seminole. I can't say if it's more marketable in terms of applying for a job, but I think you would learn more.
I'm not sure you would learn more by instructing- you DO learn a lot as a CFI or MEI, but it's not the same things. Instructing focuses heavily on the basics in an academic environment, and only some of that translates over. Instructing through dozens of ILS approaches from the right seat teaches something very different from making decisions when you have cargo on board, dwindling fuel reserves, and you've had to go missed on your first ILS approach.
First, all the FOs I flew with were from overseas- they were building time prior to going back home and finishing up their certs, so there was no question of them replacing a paid position. Besides, we fly the PA31, BE99, SA227, and BE1900 single pilot, so there's never an issue of them taking the place of a paid crewmember.
Second, all the ones I have flown with were very professional, quite willing to help, well-prepared, and most importantly, made my job safer. Most of the time they chose to fly on the longest runs, the ones that go into the smallest airports with the crappiest approaches and are the most fatiguing.
I value having a second crewmember and actually using two-crew procedures, not just for the safety factor but because my next job WILL be a two-crew environment, and I want to have some experience before moving into that. I find that on any flight, if I have someone in the right seat, or if I'm riding with another pilot and acting as PNF, I fly better and think more about factors like weather, fuel, diverting, etc. That's counterintuitive, but I've found that having someone else who is part of the decision-making process helps me do a better job of making decisions.
I can't say if time-splitting or an FO program would be better, but I know that most renters don't get the experience that our FOs do- renters tend to fly in mild conditions, as time allows. We have real schedules to keep, customers to satisfy, ops specs to comply with, and we fly in almost any weather. Without considering cost, I would argue that the experience our FOs gain is more valuable than sharing a Seminole. I can't say if it's more marketable in terms of applying for a job, but I think you would learn more.
I'm not sure you would learn more by instructing- you DO learn a lot as a CFI or MEI, but it's not the same things. Instructing focuses heavily on the basics in an academic environment, and only some of that translates over. Instructing through dozens of ILS approaches from the right seat teaches something very different from making decisions when you have cargo on board, dwindling fuel reserves, and you've had to go missed on your first ILS approach.
I do agree with you with respect to the experience our FOs get over splitting time, and it all depends on which Captain they fly with.
02-15-2009, 06:20 AM
#168
On Reserve
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 21
Originally Posted by freightdog
This was well thought out and well written. TangoBar, next time you get one of those good FOs send them down my way! There was an FO down here in ONT that just got hired right seat into the Brasilia and he was one of those GOOD FOs you speak of.
I do agree with you with respect to the experience our FOs get over splitting time, and it all depends on which Captain they fly with.
I do agree with you with respect to the experience our FOs get over splitting time, and it all depends on which Captain they fly with.
02-15-2009, 10:20 AM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 'Bus Driver Right Seat
Posts: 523
Originally Posted by BTPM
Hey Freightdog, hope all is well. I haven't talked to you in a while. BTW I forgot about Val getting the FO spot on the EMB120, but yep that's another one that we hired. Like I said in the previous post, you get out of a situation what you put into it. This FO saw an opportunity, went for it, and is now in a good spot and getting his career on track. What I don't get though is 121 guys that were hired on with less than a thousand hours lecturing us about the use of a pay for training FO program, when in fact most of those guys hurt the industry more, when they work for companies like Mesa or Pinnacle where the first year FO pay is below the poverty line. Anyhow, call me sometime and fill me in on what you have been up to.
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