On-Call Is Not Rest
07-08-2008, 11:42 PM
#21
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Don't get me wrong here, Dylan. In general, I like your post, but I would like to use your post to respond to a couple of things.
As you and I have both noted, there is no question about it. There is no gray area as has been suggested by others. Many interpretations of 'rest' have been issued by the FAA, and all of them indicate that rest must be prospectively determined, continuous, and without restraint or present responsibility for work. A Federal Court of Appeals upheld the FAA's right to interpret its regulations and their interpretation of rest as it regards 135.267. There is not a single contradictory opinion or interpretation out there as far as I've been able to determine. 121 crews and even flight attendants, as you noted, abide by this definition of rest. Yet charter companies push and pilots continue to believe that on-call is rest. On-call is not rest. The only question is whether we will be caught and violated.
While I cannot say that I don't understand this question, it still bothers me. Do you drive around without wearing a seatbelt because the police probably won't stop you for it? No, most people wear seatbelts because it is safer and it's the law. We have a professional certification on the line, not just a ticket on a driving record. Even if you assume that no one has ever been violated for this, think of all the other violations that could potentially result from flying while fatigued. The slightest blemish can ruin us, depending upon our career aspirations. A gear-up landing could kill us. Why not just follow the law? It's in our best interest (and favor, for once).
Instead of wasting time trying to find out whether anyone has been violated, spend that time educating your buddies. If everybody is on the same page, then they can't single you out. If you really want to know though, you are in for a lot of searching that ultimately may not give you a conclusive answer. Many violations are settled without a hearing, and therefore don't result in any kind of a searchable record. Unless we get lucky and someone who has been violated happens to read this thread, then you may never know. PM me if you want information on how to search for that information.
As to the second sentence in the quote, the appeal was not the result of a violation. In 1999, the FAA issued a 'Notice of Enforcement'. The Notice expressed the FAA's intent to rigorously enforce their interpretation of rest against operators and pilots. A group of fifty charter companies challenged the Notice and the rest interpretation in Court. They lost.
Originally Posted by DylanFan
If those same definitions were copied word for word into the beginning of 135.267 (the flight crew rest time requirements) there wouldn't be any question about it.
Originally Posted by DylanFan
Does anyone know of a company (or pilot for that matter) that's ever been violated because of this? I'm guessing you can't look this up on the FAA website, but obviously someone got in trouble back in 1999 to prompt that appeal to the first circuit court.
Instead of wasting time trying to find out whether anyone has been violated, spend that time educating your buddies. If everybody is on the same page, then they can't single you out. If you really want to know though, you are in for a lot of searching that ultimately may not give you a conclusive answer. Many violations are settled without a hearing, and therefore don't result in any kind of a searchable record. Unless we get lucky and someone who has been violated happens to read this thread, then you may never know. PM me if you want information on how to search for that information.
As to the second sentence in the quote, the appeal was not the result of a violation. In 1999, the FAA issued a 'Notice of Enforcement'. The Notice expressed the FAA's intent to rigorously enforce their interpretation of rest against operators and pilots. A group of fifty charter companies challenged the Notice and the rest interpretation in Court. They lost.
07-09-2008, 10:29 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by SR22
121 crews and even flight attendants, as you noted, abide by this definition of rest.
07-10-2008, 01:29 PM
#23
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Thanks to RedGuy I now know the meaning of the word "flame-bait".
I did not say ALL 121 operators and crews operate in compliance with this definition, though I would wager most do. Every working pilot reading this thread, myself included, is probably well aware that many operations exist that have the pilots on-call 24/7. That's the point of this thread!
It doesn't matter how many other operations are violating the law besides yours. If you went into court and argued that you thought it was okay to speed because the other guy was doing it, do you think the judge would buy it? On-call is not rest!
Prove me wrong, or go haunt some other thread!
I did not say ALL 121 operators and crews operate in compliance with this definition, though I would wager most do. Every working pilot reading this thread, myself included, is probably well aware that many operations exist that have the pilots on-call 24/7. That's the point of this thread!
It doesn't matter how many other operations are violating the law besides yours. If you went into court and argued that you thought it was okay to speed because the other guy was doing it, do you think the judge would buy it? On-call is not rest!
Prove me wrong, or go haunt some other thread!
07-11-2008, 04:57 AM
#24
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Posts: 259
Originally Posted by DylanFan
If you are on call for 10 hours and then get 10 hours rest (under 135.267) it seems like a company would need twice as many pilots to operate. Even then, I can't see how you would keep a plane covered (always ready to go within an hour or two) without even more than that. How exactly does your crew scheduling work? I also wonder how air ambulance operators do it without breaking the regs.
I guess that our management has just decided that the amount of midnight call outs that we receive do not offset the cost of staffing the airplanes heavier than we already do. At some point that may not be the case, but at that point we will just hire more people, not interpret the regs for our convenience.
07-11-2008, 09:03 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Captain
Posts: 310
Originally Posted by SR22
Thanks to RedGuy I now know the meaning of the word "flame-bait".
I did not say ALL 121 operators and crews operate in compliance with this definition, though I would wager most do. Every working pilot reading this thread, myself included, is probably well aware that many operations exist that have the pilots on-call 24/7. That's the point of this thread!
It doesn't matter how many other operations are violating the law besides yours. If you went into court and argued that you thought it was okay to speed because the other guy was doing it, do you think the judge would buy it? On-call is not rest!
Prove me wrong, or go haunt some other thread!
I did not say ALL 121 operators and crews operate in compliance with this definition, though I would wager most do. Every working pilot reading this thread, myself included, is probably well aware that many operations exist that have the pilots on-call 24/7. That's the point of this thread!
It doesn't matter how many other operations are violating the law besides yours. If you went into court and argued that you thought it was okay to speed because the other guy was doing it, do you think the judge would buy it? On-call is not rest!
Prove me wrong, or go haunt some other thread!
I'm not flame baiting you, you stated that 121 crews abide by bla bla bla. The reason most 121 crews can have set time off is that probably 90% of 121 is the airlines, WHICH ARE SCHEDULED!!! It seems you hold 121 to some gold standard, but in the end it's no different than any other operation. There's scheduled 121 and unscheduled 121, same goes for 135. And the 121 on demand operators are running their crews the same way 135 on demand operators do.
BTW Why are you on a crusade about this again? Your not going to change an industry that's been operating this way since before the FAA even existed. That was a flame bait BTW!
The rule in the FAR does not say that being on call is not rest, it doesn't even define rest other than "Not to be assigned any duties" and as far as I'm concerned being on call is not a duty since I'm not at work, I'm sitting comfortably at home. In the end being safe all comes down to your own intelligence, if your tired turn down the trip! It's that simple! So I really don't care what the court says, until they change the rule, I'm going to be on call. I will stop "Haunting" your thread now since I will never change your mind about this, and you will never change mine.
BTW here's 135.263 and 135.267 for your reading enjoyment!
§ 135.263 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders.
(a) A certificate holder may assign a flight crew member and a flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time only when the applicable requirements of §§135.263 through 135.271 are met.
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
(c) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.
§ 135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and—
(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed—
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and
(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.
(f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.
(a) A certificate holder may assign a flight crew member and a flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time only when the applicable requirements of §§135.263 through 135.271 are met.
(b) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to any duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period.
(c) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.
(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.
§ 135.267 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.
(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed—
(1) 500 hours in any calendar quarter.
(2) 800 hours in any two consecutive calendar quarters.
(3) 1,400 hours in any calendar year.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, during any 24 consecutive hours the total flight time of the assigned flight when added to any other commercial flying by that flight crewmember may not exceed—
(1) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(2) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots qualified under this part for the operation being conducted.
(c) A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and—
(1) If this duty period is immediately preceded by and followed by a required rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours of rest;
(2) If flight time is assigned during this period, that total flight time when added to any other commercial flying by the flight crewmember may not exceed—
(i) 8 hours for a flight crew consisting of one pilot; or
(ii) 10 hours for a flight crew consisting of two pilots; and
(3) If the combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours.
(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
(e) When a flight crewmember has exceeded the daily flight time limitations in this section, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), that flight crewmember must have a rest period before being assigned or accepting an assignment for flight time of at least—
(1) 11 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by not more than 30 minutes;
(2) 12 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 30 minutes, but not more than 60 minutes; and
(3) 16 consecutive hours of rest if the flight time limitation is exceeded by more than 60 minutes.
(f) The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.
Last edited by RedGuy; 07-11-2008 at 09:37 AM.
07-12-2008, 02:23 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by RedGuy
BTW Why are you on a crusade about this again?
Seriously though, this opinion is for real if anybody ever needs it. Scheduled or not, they have several options available to them to provide us with a stable schedule.
Speaking of which, sounds like a pretty cool gig VTcharter. Smart people.
This isn't the airlines, folks. Seats aren't going for $100. Don't fall for their, "It'll put us out of business," BS. If they can afford charter, they can afford proper staffing.
07-13-2008, 12:42 PM
#27
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Position: King Air 90, 200, 350
Posts: 18
Originally Posted by VTcharter
It does require a few more employees, however this is the cost of doing business in a legal and safe way. If a business cannot be run according to legal restraints, then it is time to find a new line of business. I know that it can be done successfully, as we do it every day and we are growing at an amazing rate. We also do not run an on call crew 24 hours per day. Our on call schedule ends in the evening and starts back up in the morning. We operate 24 hours a day, but only scheduled trips will go into the overnight hours. Another thing that could happen is to take crewmembers who are scheduled to be off, and call them to see if they want to fly...no pressure to do it though. In that case, the crewmembers will have been on rest because they have been scheduled OFF for the time preceeding the call.
I guess that our management has just decided that the amount of midnight call outs that we receive do not offset the cost of staffing the airplanes heavier than we already do. At some point that may not be the case, but at that point we will just hire more people, not interpret the regs for our convenience.
I guess that our management has just decided that the amount of midnight call outs that we receive do not offset the cost of staffing the airplanes heavier than we already do. At some point that may not be the case, but at that point we will just hire more people, not interpret the regs for our convenience.
07-13-2008, 02:47 PM
#28
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SR22, Thanks for your your posts. Very informative and thought provoking. I am one of the guys on the receiving end of this dirty stick. Sitting "Hot Call" with no idea when rest begins or ends and having to be ready to fly (wheels up in one hour) is brutal. I am obligated to sit for days and be ready at any moment to go, no rest period even remotely identified by dispatch. No adult beverages during what could be indefinate days of hot call. BTW this little dance can go on the entire 18 days of my rotation. Thanks for your post.
07-23-2008, 01:16 PM
#30
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 76
You always have the option to decline a flight based on fatigue (ie: your 10hour rest-period ended at 6am, and they call you for a flight that evening for a Vegas run from 9pm-8am. Lord knows you haven't continued to "rest" all day long.)
Search on how many reports are filed for errors made due to fatigue:
ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System
Search on how many reports are filed for errors made due to fatigue:
ASRS - Aviation Safety Reporting System
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