Charter Brokers
06-03-2009, 04:13 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Just a broker now.
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by Fr8DogDan
I'd rather fly for a broker than do all that work myself. Setting up trucking, finding the right aircraft,etc. I'll just bid on a trip and let the broker take the headache.
By the way !121ADX, do you need another aircraft in your list? I'm south of TOL a bit and used to fly those Bandits out of R47. Right now, they are down due to economy and probably won't be back none too soon.
By the way !121ADX, do you need another aircraft in your list? I'm south of TOL a bit and used to fly those Bandits out of R47. Right now, they are down due to economy and probably won't be back none too soon.
I have a feeling you're at Messenger out of Bluffton.
06-03-2009, 04:41 AM
#12
Flying Farmer
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
Posts: 3,160
I used to have some pretty good luck with the Brokers that called my old company. I honestly couldn't tell you who they were unless you happened to have the company name I'd probably remember. Sad I forget already, I've only been out 2 years(well, ok I wasn't in the 135 for that long, but still). I did deal with the guys out of YIP, and then there was an Op out of I think South Carolina that'd call us often East Coast XXXX(can't remember full name). I remember when PSA airlines used to go through a broker to get to us, then figured out they could save a bunch of dough and call direct. Many trips from DAY-CLT for them!
Last edited by Ewfflyer; 06-03-2009 at 09:48 AM.
06-03-2009, 10:30 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Just a broker now.
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by Ewfflyer
I used to have some pretty good luck with the Brokers that called my old company. I honestly couldn't tell you who they were unless you happened to have the company name I'd probably remember. Sad I forget already, I've only been out 2 years(well, ok I wasn't in the 135 for that long, but still). I did deal with the guys out of YIP, and then there was an Op out of I think South Carolina that'd call us often East Coast XXXX(can't remember full name). I remember when PSA airlines used to go through a broker to get to us, then figured out they could save a bunch of dough and call direct. Many trips from DAY-CLT for them!
East Coast Air Charter. Bill is a great guy to work with there.
06-05-2009, 09:55 AM
#16
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
Originally Posted by F-90 Driver
Hi everyone,
How legal is charter brokering? Is the FAA trying to stop it?
I do not really know much about it besides the negative aspects. I was just trying to be more enlightened about why it is not generally liked.
Thanks.
How legal is charter brokering? Is the FAA trying to stop it?
I do not really know much about it besides the negative aspects. I was just trying to be more enlightened about why it is not generally liked.
Thanks.
A good Broker works for the customer, not the operator. And thats why many Charter Operaters frown upon Brokers. Brokers will call multiple Operators, and drive down the price by having operators competeing against eachother.
As in any business, a good Broker cannot be purely price driven. They have to way all aspects of the flight to give their Customers quality service.
06-05-2009, 10:53 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Just a broker now.
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by JETUPANDGO
The FAA frowns upon Brokers because they cannot regulate them. Everything is fine until an accident/incident occurs and then the FAA gets really insecure about Brokers. The FAA can revoke/suspend an operators charter cert., but they do not have the same authority to stop a broker from continuing to operate. They feel that the Broker is misrepresenting to the public that they can control all the aspects of the Aircrafts Operation.
A good Broker works for the customer, not the operator. And thats why many Charter Operaters frown upon Brokers. Brokers will call multiple Operators, and drive down the price by having operators competeing against eachother.
As in any business, a good Broker cannot be purely price driven. They have to way all aspects of the flight to give their Customers quality service.
A good Broker works for the customer, not the operator. And thats why many Charter Operaters frown upon Brokers. Brokers will call multiple Operators, and drive down the price by having operators competeing against eachother.
As in any business, a good Broker cannot be purely price driven. They have to way all aspects of the flight to give their Customers quality service.
I don't know if you read the memo or not, I have a copy if you want it. But in 2006 the FAA pretty much laid down the law about brokering a/c. YOU HAVE TO BE A INDIRECT OR DIRECT AIR CARRIER IN ORDER TO BE A CHARTER BROKER. If you are the actual shipper, you don't need a certificate. I just had a meeting at the Detroit FSDO on Friday to go over some specifics regarding our certificate with Air Freight. They do have the authority to yank my certificate. Charter operators do not frown upon brokers...unless you're saying Active Aero/USA Jet, Kalitta, and Ameristar are all frowning upon themselves.
Those three airlines have there own brokering department. And I do use Kalitta's because they are nice people and I'm busy half the time to call every carrier in my back pocket.
I'm pretty sure Active Aero is the largest 3PL company in the United States...and may I add that this "Charter Broker" handles all of Johnson Controls' Air Charters. But here's the funny part. In turn, Active Aero brokers those charters out to a couple companies! An airline that is acting as a broker sends it to another company for brokering! (And JCI has no problems with this because of the service they get)
Hey! You know who handles all Charters for Chrystler and GM? A Charter Broker!! NLM is the premier brokering company for automotive.
And it is a price driven market right now. Whoever is the lowest wins. If the airline wants the trip, they'll match the price. It's called competing.
That is my rant...and stop giving brokers a bad name.
PS, I've had two accidents under my belt...one with one of my planes and one brokered out. The brokered out plane crashed and nothing happend to the cert we were operating under because I didn't force the plane to fly, the airline did. All I do is buy the plane, not fly it.
06-05-2009, 11:50 AM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 82
I was not attacking Brokers.
The OP asked why Brokers are generally not liked. Historically, in my experience, my reasons are correct. Only time will tell what my future experiences with them will be like. I hope they are all as good as this one.
The OP asked why Brokers are generally not liked. Historically, in my experience, my reasons are correct. Only time will tell what my future experiences with them will be like. I hope they are all as good as this one.
06-06-2009, 05:42 AM
#19
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 110
Originally Posted by i121ADX
As I've been explaining to other people in this forum about brokering...you seem to not have ready any of my posts.
I don't know if you read the memo or not, I have a copy if you want it. But in 2006 the FAA pretty much laid down the law about brokering a/c. YOU HAVE TO BE A INDIRECT OR DIRECT AIR CARRIER IN ORDER TO BE A CHARTER BROKER. If you are the actual shipper, you don't need a certificate. I just had a meeting at the Detroit FSDO on Friday to go over some specifics regarding our certificate with Air Freight. They do have the authority to yank my certificate. Charter operators do not frown upon brokers...unless you're saying Active Aero/USA Jet, Kalitta, and Ameristar are all frowning upon themselves.
Those three airlines have there own brokering department. And I do use Kalitta's because they are nice people and I'm busy half the time to call every carrier in my back pocket.
I'm pretty sure Active Aero is the largest 3PL company in the United States...and may I add that this "Charter Broker" handles all of Johnson Controls' Air Charters. But here's the funny part. In turn, Active Aero brokers those charters out to a couple companies! An airline that is acting as a broker sends it to another company for brokering! (And JCI has no problems with this because of the service they get)
Hey! You know who handles all Charters for Chrystler and GM? A Charter Broker!! NLM is the premier brokering company for automotive.
And it is a price driven market right now. Whoever is the lowest wins. If the airline wants the trip, they'll match the price. It's called competing.
That is my rant...and stop giving brokers a bad name.
PS, I've had two accidents under my belt...one with one of my planes and one brokered out. The brokered out plane crashed and nothing happend to the cert we were operating under because I didn't force the plane to fly, the airline did. All I do is buy the plane, not fly it.
I don't know if you read the memo or not, I have a copy if you want it. But in 2006 the FAA pretty much laid down the law about brokering a/c. YOU HAVE TO BE A INDIRECT OR DIRECT AIR CARRIER IN ORDER TO BE A CHARTER BROKER. If you are the actual shipper, you don't need a certificate. I just had a meeting at the Detroit FSDO on Friday to go over some specifics regarding our certificate with Air Freight. They do have the authority to yank my certificate. Charter operators do not frown upon brokers...unless you're saying Active Aero/USA Jet, Kalitta, and Ameristar are all frowning upon themselves.
Those three airlines have there own brokering department. And I do use Kalitta's because they are nice people and I'm busy half the time to call every carrier in my back pocket.
I'm pretty sure Active Aero is the largest 3PL company in the United States...and may I add that this "Charter Broker" handles all of Johnson Controls' Air Charters. But here's the funny part. In turn, Active Aero brokers those charters out to a couple companies! An airline that is acting as a broker sends it to another company for brokering! (And JCI has no problems with this because of the service they get)
Hey! You know who handles all Charters for Chrystler and GM? A Charter Broker!! NLM is the premier brokering company for automotive.
And it is a price driven market right now. Whoever is the lowest wins. If the airline wants the trip, they'll match the price. It's called competing.
That is my rant...and stop giving brokers a bad name.
PS, I've had two accidents under my belt...one with one of my planes and one brokered out. The brokered out plane crashed and nothing happend to the cert we were operating under because I didn't force the plane to fly, the airline did. All I do is buy the plane, not fly it.
It is important to note hear that there is no INDIRECT AIR CARRIER certificate of any kind. The term simply defines a broker.
That being said, there is a requirement by TSA for Indirect Air Carriers to adopt and carry out a security program. Nothing more.
Also, charter operators DO NOT FROWN UPON BROKERS. Quite the opposite. Without the brokers, many operators would have a difficult time finding customers. It is a very competitive industry. Brokers use their resources to attract customers. Charter operators focus on providing the service. They work as a team.
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