DC-3 with low timers
04-28-2011, 07:49 AM
#21
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Here is my point. Flying is the bush is "neat". DC6 time is kind of "cool". However there is not even a place to record those experiences in most airline pilot applications.
The HR lady does not care about your fun connection to aviations past. The computer who scans the application does not care how cool a DC6 is. It all just goes into the total time column as if it were touch and goes in a 172. There is not a place to record such vivid and broad experiences because the airlines don't care about it.
All they want to see is part 121 jet PIC. Anything that detracts from that path is seen as a negative no matter how cool or fun.
Skyhigh
The HR lady does not care about your fun connection to aviations past. The computer who scans the application does not care how cool a DC6 is. It all just goes into the total time column as if it were touch and goes in a 172. There is not a place to record such vivid and broad experiences because the airlines don't care about it.
All they want to see is part 121 jet PIC. Anything that detracts from that path is seen as a negative no matter how cool or fun.
Skyhigh
There are some of us who would love to fly the gooney-bird: an airplane that, not only still flies, but is economically viable 75 years after it entered service. A plane drawn on a drafting table based on calculations done on a slide rule. Flying one of those ol' girls is almost like serving on Old Ironsides. Well, if you don't get it, there is no way I can explain it.
Putting all that aside, let's talk about getting that dream job with your dream mainline....
There are several thousand regional pilots with 1000+ TPIC in 50+ seaters. Add maybe another thousand with similar time flying larger TPs. But there are only a couple hundred who have flown any of the classic workhorses.
So, now you and I and 18 other folks are sitting in the Continental interview room. Who do you think will peak the attention of the Pilot interviewer? Consider these questions:
"What did you do before coming here?"
-"I flew a 50 seat barbie jets from class B and C airports"
vs.
-"My first real job was in a DC 3. I started in the right seat and moved to the left seat about a year later. We hauled mostly show goats and pot belly pigs. The neat thing is, that plane, N-----, originally NC----, entered service with Essair which changed it's name to Pioneer Airlines which, of course, merged with Continental in 1953."
"TMAAT you had an emergency."
- "Well, one day we had both generators fail and had to hand fly an ILS using only standby instruments."
vs.
- "Weelll, one day setting climb power, we had an engine start clanging around, making one heck of a racket. The engine was still making power, so I chose to leave it running. After we declared and were on vectors to final, I realized I might want to reconsider shutting down the engine. You see, we had one piston seize. It tore the jug out of the block and after a couple minutes the rod failed and the jug flew right out the cowl flaps."
04-28-2011, 08:30 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
Skyhigh,
When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.
When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.
When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.
When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.
04-28-2011, 09:30 AM
#23
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Wager
Originally Posted by Airhoss
Skyhigh,
When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.
When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.
When the airlines crank up and start a wave of hiring here in the not to distant future I'll make you a little wager. That is even you Mr. Pessimistic downer dude will be able to get an interview at a major airline.
When they are hiring they are hiring when they aren't they aren't.
I would be happy to put my foot in my mouth if I could get a worthwhile job as a pilot in the airlines. In fact I have a standing offer to publicly humiliate myself here for the one who can get me a good job with one of the better well known companies.
I sincerely hope you will win this wager.
Skyhigh
04-28-2011, 09:40 AM
#24
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fun?
I have my share of aviation stories but they don't help to get hired at the majors.
The airlines want corporate hardened airline automations who have already proven their devotion to the profession thorough a decade or more of mind numbing line flying.
HR ladies want to see a predicable and swift progression from college graduation to left seat in an RJ prior to 30 years if age. They don't care about your summer flying skydivers or that you had fun in the Alaskan bush in a DC6.
If anything it serves as more of a distraction. The question is then inevitably asked "why didn't you go straight to a regional"? "Is there something in your background that we missed"? People who want to fly for the airlines fly for the airlines. They don't take personal diversions as a crop duster or to fly floats.
Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.
Skyhigh
The airlines want corporate hardened airline automations who have already proven their devotion to the profession thorough a decade or more of mind numbing line flying.
HR ladies want to see a predicable and swift progression from college graduation to left seat in an RJ prior to 30 years if age. They don't care about your summer flying skydivers or that you had fun in the Alaskan bush in a DC6.
If anything it serves as more of a distraction. The question is then inevitably asked "why didn't you go straight to a regional"? "Is there something in your background that we missed"? People who want to fly for the airlines fly for the airlines. They don't take personal diversions as a crop duster or to fly floats.
Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.
Skyhigh
04-28-2011, 09:46 AM
#25
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Fun is Fun
Originally Posted by FlyJSH
Boy, I really do feel sorry for you.
There are some of us who would love to fly the gooney-bird: an airplane that, not only still flies, but is economically viable 75 years after it entered service. A plane drawn on a drafting table based on calculations done on a slide rule. Flying one of those ol' girls is almost like serving on Old Ironsides. Well, if you don't get it, there is no way I can explain it.
Putting all that aside, let's talk about getting that dream job with your dream mainline....
There are several thousand regional pilots with 1000+ TPIC in 50+ seaters. Add maybe another thousand with similar time flying larger TPs. But there are only a couple hundred who have flown any of the classic workhorses.
So, now you and I and 18 other folks are sitting in the Continental interview room. Who do you think will peak the attention of the Pilot interviewer? Consider these questions:
"What did you do before coming here?"
-"I flew a 50 seat barbie jets from class B and C airports"
vs.
-"My first real job was in a DC 3. I started in the right seat and moved to the left seat about a year later. We hauled mostly show goats and pot belly pigs. The neat thing is, that plane, N-----, originally NC----, entered service with Essair which changed it's name to Pioneer Airlines which, of course, merged with Continental in 1953."
"TMAAT you had an emergency."
- "Well, one day we had both generators fail and had to hand fly an ILS using only standby instruments."
vs.
- "Weelll, one day setting climb power, we had an engine start clanging around, making one heck of a racket. The engine was still making power, so I chose to leave it running. After we declared and were on vectors to final, I realized I might want to reconsider shutting down the engine. You see, we had one piston seize. It tore the jug out of the block and after a couple minutes the rod failed and the jug flew right out the cowl flaps."
There are some of us who would love to fly the gooney-bird: an airplane that, not only still flies, but is economically viable 75 years after it entered service. A plane drawn on a drafting table based on calculations done on a slide rule. Flying one of those ol' girls is almost like serving on Old Ironsides. Well, if you don't get it, there is no way I can explain it.
Putting all that aside, let's talk about getting that dream job with your dream mainline....
There are several thousand regional pilots with 1000+ TPIC in 50+ seaters. Add maybe another thousand with similar time flying larger TPs. But there are only a couple hundred who have flown any of the classic workhorses.
So, now you and I and 18 other folks are sitting in the Continental interview room. Who do you think will peak the attention of the Pilot interviewer? Consider these questions:
"What did you do before coming here?"
-"I flew a 50 seat barbie jets from class B and C airports"
vs.
-"My first real job was in a DC 3. I started in the right seat and moved to the left seat about a year later. We hauled mostly show goats and pot belly pigs. The neat thing is, that plane, N-----, originally NC----, entered service with Essair which changed it's name to Pioneer Airlines which, of course, merged with Continental in 1953."
"TMAAT you had an emergency."
- "Well, one day we had both generators fail and had to hand fly an ILS using only standby instruments."
vs.
- "Weelll, one day setting climb power, we had an engine start clanging around, making one heck of a racket. The engine was still making power, so I chose to leave it running. After we declared and were on vectors to final, I realized I might want to reconsider shutting down the engine. You see, we had one piston seize. It tore the jug out of the block and after a couple minutes the rod failed and the jug flew right out the cowl flaps."
Fun is one thing and career building another. At one time I enjoyed flying old planes too. I spent a few summers in a DeHallviland Beaver. As far as I know SWA does not have a place to record float time. They also do not give extra credit for having experience with round engines unless it burns jet fuel. All that stuff goes into the total time column and holds the same value as if you were flying circles in a 152 that entire time.
In regards to getting a good airline job it is pretty much meaningless to have old plane experience.
Skyhigh
04-28-2011, 01:21 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
In fact I have a standing offer to publicly humiliate myself here for the one who can get me a good job with one of the better well known companies.
BTW
Several of my very good friends were DC-6/7 captains in AK who went straight from there to various Majors including America West, Fed Ex, and Cathay Pacific. Your analogy of the 40 year old DC-6 in AK captain is flawed and strife with defeatist rhetoric. Anybody who wants to bad enough can change their current situation. It's a matter of desire and drive. You are talking to somebody who has moved out of the bush flying arena, the firefighting arena, the corporate arena, and the Non sched heavy jet arena before making it to the majors.
I could have allowed myself to get stuck at any one of them. I choose not to. And I did it at EXACTLY the same time frame that you were trying to do it. So don't give me your "that was decades ago BS." A defeatist will always be defeated because he doesn't know how to win.
I've been trying to help you know for several years and as always you simply plug your ears and start yelling "NAH NAH NAH NAH" the moment I do. My advice is free I've offered it, it's your to do with as you choose.
Last edited by Airhoss; 04-28-2011 at 03:23 PM.
04-28-2011, 02:19 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: A-320 FO
Posts: 693
Turbine experience matters today since most equipment is, well turbine. I do know a sh!tload of PBA DC-3 guys and gals who went straight to legacies, SWA, etc, and some who went sideways to other regionals. The biggest factor right now is recency of experience.
04-28-2011, 02:25 PM
#28
Back on line
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Out of the sim, back in the real!
Posts: 99
DC-3 Time
Gentleman,
I can relay one true DC-3 story. I worked for Miami Valley Aviation and DID fly the the DC-3. My friend was called in to interview for a major cargo carrier: did great but did not get the job! Reason? They were afraid he would not pass the training.
He did very well in the end. He was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear jet and then went back and was hired at the same cargo company. I had just the same luck. I was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear, and later to the A320. Sometimes looking back; even I don't believe that I did it!
AWACS
I can relay one true DC-3 story. I worked for Miami Valley Aviation and DID fly the the DC-3. My friend was called in to interview for a major cargo carrier: did great but did not get the job! Reason? They were afraid he would not pass the training.
He did very well in the end. He was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear jet and then went back and was hired at the same cargo company. I had just the same luck. I was able to go from the DC-3 to the Lear, and later to the A320. Sometimes looking back; even I don't believe that I did it!
AWACS
04-28-2011, 03:36 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
Posts: 5,709
My first "fast mover" was a -10 powered Merlin III it was about 100 knots faster in cruise than anything I'd flown before and it was all single pilot. Cruise isn't what messes you up it's adjusting to the timing below 10K at 250 KIAS and transitioning to approaches happens a lot quicker but once you get properly ahead of the thing it boils down to basic flying skills and in particular basic attitude instrument flying. If you've got a good solid scan the rest of it all falls into place.
My first jet was a DC-8 and I found that thing relaxingly simple to fly after coming out of flying the Merlin single pilot. The work load was about half. During initial we had a guy who was flying DC-3's for Four Star down in Puerto Rico he was my sim partner until he busted out. His problem wasn't the speed his problem was that his instrument skills were horrible. He'd just spent WAY to much time flying VFR. Most guys who have trouble transitioning to jets have some basic instrument attitude flying issues. That's what I've noticed over the years anyway. Because a Jet takes a more aggressive scan simply because they do things faster and in particular the tiniest amount of pitch change equals much larger rates of vertical deviation than most straight winged TP and Recip guys are used to.
One thing I remembered the old timers telling me, the guys who had transitioned from large piston bird to jets at their airlines in the day was that the VSI was your life make sure you look at it twice as often as you used to. Pretty sage advice for a guy transitioning from "those" to "these".
My first jet was a DC-8 and I found that thing relaxingly simple to fly after coming out of flying the Merlin single pilot. The work load was about half. During initial we had a guy who was flying DC-3's for Four Star down in Puerto Rico he was my sim partner until he busted out. His problem wasn't the speed his problem was that his instrument skills were horrible. He'd just spent WAY to much time flying VFR. Most guys who have trouble transitioning to jets have some basic instrument attitude flying issues. That's what I've noticed over the years anyway. Because a Jet takes a more aggressive scan simply because they do things faster and in particular the tiniest amount of pitch change equals much larger rates of vertical deviation than most straight winged TP and Recip guys are used to.
One thing I remembered the old timers telling me, the guys who had transitioned from large piston bird to jets at their airlines in the day was that the VSI was your life make sure you look at it twice as often as you used to. Pretty sage advice for a guy transitioning from "those" to "these".
04-28-2011, 04:22 PM
#30
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
The airlines want corporate hardened airline automations who have already proven their devotion to the profession thorough a decade or more of mind numbing line flying.
.........
Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.
Skyhigh
.........
Free spirits like that most often are not rewarded.
Skyhigh
Being a "free spirit" does have consequences. Sailing around the world wastes valuable time and money: time better spent on a career, and money that could be invested for retirement.
But what grandkid wants to hear about how you locked in long term bonds making 15% way back when? For that matter, what memories do you want to have while rocking away your golden years?
I guess Frank said it best:
YouTube - Frank Sinatra, My Way, With Lyrics
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