Pyramid Scheme
06-22-2012 | 11:47 AM
#22
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This fudger, or more accurately, criminal will not have the same experience background as the honest pilot applicant. They will be deficient in their pilot skills and lack even more in their character. I do believe the number of people perpetrating this crime will go up a tad when the ATP rule goes in effect, but they will pay for it later on. A lot later on, actually. That's the problem with cheaters, they always want the goods now while paying a dear price for it in self-betrayal. How can you live like that?
06-22-2012 | 12:30 PM
#23
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From: ATP, CFI etc.
I am not sure the world is ultimately fair, sure doesn't seem fair to those who died on the battlefield or those who say, contract a fatal disease and die at age 15. But I still must think and act as though I believe it is fair. And I largely do believe that life is fair. As far as these cheaters we are talking about, if they go to airline B and beat you and me in the process, maybe even take our places there, then I guess they won that game. But my point is that in the larger sense of "win" they are not winners at all. They are whatever miserable thing they became when they sold their heart to get what they got for becoming cheaters.
06-22-2012 | 01:33 PM
#24
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Joined: Jun 2012
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From: Pa34/200T
I have been "earning my way" since 2005 working 3 jobs and flying when I can. I have (750) logged hours and never once has "fudging" hours crossed my mind. It has to do with self respect, and dignity some people still have that.
Sadly, I know people who have done this to the extreme and they all have nice reginal airline jobs when I cant even get a reginal to interview me. SMH, But you know what at the end of the day I'll keep flying and sleeping well at night.
Sadly, I know people who have done this to the extreme and they all have nice reginal airline jobs when I cant even get a reginal to interview me. SMH, But you know what at the end of the day I'll keep flying and sleeping well at night.
06-22-2012 | 02:52 PM
#25
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: single pilot cargo, turboprop
To address the "scheme" posed by the OP. It was much more of a reality from 2002 to 2006. It wasn't until regionals dropped their minimums to 800 an below that Flight Instructor jobs became easier to get. For many the best alternative was to buy time.
With so many foreign students, instructors can stay busy without their students turning around and competing for their business.
With so many foreign students, instructors can stay busy without their students turning around and competing for their business.
06-22-2012 | 08:53 PM
#26
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The 1500 hour rule has greater effects than just hiring minimums at the regionals like how are these new pilots supposed to get the time? In years past students outnumbered instructors by a great deal. Those days are gone now. Student starts and hobby pilot numbers are approaching a quarter of what they were in the 1970's while the number of CFI's has tripped to nearly 100,000.
By my guess it takes 20 or more students to produce 1000 hours of instruction given time in the log book. Those 20 students are then supposed to get a CFI to train 20 more? The numbers just don't work out. In the past a low time pilot had other options like pipeline patrol, flying skydivers, right seat in a check hauling operation, but those things are fading away as well.
Just how are new pilots supposed to get 1500 total time plus 50 hours of multi-engine PIC? Buy the time? Lie? My guess is that most of the 20 students who complete the commercial CFI hit and job market and quickly quit or get a job in a warehouse to pay the bills. Story over before it even gets started.
Skyhigh
By my guess it takes 20 or more students to produce 1000 hours of instruction given time in the log book. Those 20 students are then supposed to get a CFI to train 20 more? The numbers just don't work out. In the past a low time pilot had other options like pipeline patrol, flying skydivers, right seat in a check hauling operation, but those things are fading away as well.
Just how are new pilots supposed to get 1500 total time plus 50 hours of multi-engine PIC? Buy the time? Lie? My guess is that most of the 20 students who complete the commercial CFI hit and job market and quickly quit or get a job in a warehouse to pay the bills. Story over before it even gets started.
Skyhigh
I have been keeping track of the job market for low time pilots through various websites, specially for CFIs for the past few years as Ive been getting through school. I am expecting to be done shortly and am very eager to get out there because compared to the last five years CFIs are in high demand. Yes you have to relocate, but for people with little experience, you can expect that in many careers not just aviation. Do you have to make sacrifices? Of course you do, even more so in today's economic environment. You are a mature man, at this point you should have realized life is not perfect and we have to adapt to the world and not expect the world to adapt to our ideals.
06-23-2012 | 06:34 AM
#27
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From: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
Nothing against the foreign pilots but I got greater joy out of knowing I was training pilots that were actually going to be using US airspace. No offense to foreign pilot instructors but my experience (and Mineral Wells Texas with the lack of control tower and 3 instrument approaches sounds like Mumbai Mon - Friday) is that they are training to pass a checkride. And although Texan is not the easiest language to understand, some of the foreign candidates out there are really stretching the "read and speak English" clause. Especially when they're coming opposite direction at the same altitude flying outbound on an instrument approach in VFR conditions. But all the Texans I fly with are packing so at least we got that going for us in a dogfight
06-23-2012 | 06:36 AM
#28
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Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Corporate Pilot
Never cheated
I have been "earning my way" since 2005 working 3 jobs and flying when I can. I have (750) logged hours and never once has "fudging" hours crossed my mind. It has to do with self respect, and dignity some people still have that.
Sadly, I know people who have done this to the extreme and they all have nice reginal airline jobs when I cant even get a reginal to interview me. SMH, But you know what at the end of the day I'll keep flying and sleeping well at night.
Sadly, I know people who have done this to the extreme and they all have nice reginal airline jobs when I cant even get a reginal to interview me. SMH, But you know what at the end of the day I'll keep flying and sleeping well at night.
I had one student who lied about having a commercial instrument to a regional airline. He was given a class date and had one month to finish his commercial instrument and multi-engine. He did it and went on to have a glorious career.
Skyhigh
06-23-2012 | 06:39 AM
#29
Thread Starter
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
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From: Corporate Pilot
I have been keeping track of the job market for low time pilots through various websites, specially for CFIs for the past few years as Ive been getting through school. I am expecting to be done shortly and am very eager to get out there because compared to the last five years CFIs are in high demand. Yes you have to relocate, but for people with little experience, you can expect that in many careers not just aviation. Do you have to make sacrifices? Of course you do, even more so in today's economic environment. You are a mature man, at this point you should have realized life is not perfect and we have to adapt to the world and not expect the world to adapt to our ideals.
I prefer to invest myself in places where my efforts have a better chance of producing a return. I am irrational that way.
Skyhigh
06-23-2012 | 06:43 AM
#30
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From: Square root of the variance and average of the variation
In the 90's many of us argued that the "pay for training" scheme was cheating. I absolutely refused to work for a pay for training regional limiting my options in 1993 to Mesaba - which rejected me. Years later after flying MU-2s in the middle of the night single pilot running checks out of Detroit City I was hired by ACA.
Had I been hired by ACA when it was pay for training I would have been at the top of the seniority list. Would probably been able to leave ACA for a major before 9/11 and Indy Air (guessing really). In my mind did not paying for training affect my career? Absolutely. But I stuck to my principles and let the dice roll.
Had I been hired by ACA when it was pay for training I would have been at the top of the seniority list. Would probably been able to leave ACA for a major before 9/11 and Indy Air (guessing really). In my mind did not paying for training affect my career? Absolutely. But I stuck to my principles and let the dice roll.
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