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FAA Looking at VA Records (Indictments!)
I suspected this would happen eventually. Looks like it's now rather than later....
2 Bay Area pilots indicted on charges of lying on medical forms - Story | KTVU If you have a "discrepancy" between your VA and FAA medical files, better get a lawyer now. If YOU clear it up before THEY catch you, it's probably just a paperwork drill. |
This sounds similar to the dragnet a few years ago that was also in CA. Think these guys would have learned from the others' mistakes. FAA can and will crosscheck medical applications with VA records, Social Security, and the NDR. Best to have all ducks in a row and be honest!
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Having read the article, each of them was receiving disability payments from the VA for conditions they told the FAA they didn't have
(3xMental Disability, 1xChronic Tension Headaches) so I'm not sure getting your heart rate going that the FAA is cross checking all your VA records is warranted. If your collecting disability for a disqualifying condition that you lied about then you should probably consider rectifying that in some way before they find out. Chill out with the sensationalism. |
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.
Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA. Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud. |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2665559)
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.
Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA. Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud. The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form. |
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!
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Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2665559)
This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims, but the easiest thing to prosecute is falsifying the FAA form.
Disability fraud is rife in Workers Comp, Social Security Disability, and yes - regretfully even in the VA. Money going to these programs is finite. Money going to people who don't actually warrant it is subtracted from that available to cover those who really do warrant it. When they went to MEDEXPRESS they made it simple to retrieve all this data. You had to assume they would eventually use it as a tool to detect fraud. GF |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2665688)
Why do you think the FAA cares about VA fraud? It’s the problem with pilots hiding material health problems such as depression or PTSD. The fraud issue is the FAA’s.
GF Because it's the same federal government and money is fungible. It isn't the FAA that charges these people. The FAA actions are like an article 15 in the military. They propose an action, but if you don't comply they have to go to an actual court to get punishment levied. These cases are done by federal attorneys. They go for the easy win. If you swear under oath that you are NOT getting disability and they have the receipts that you were, that's pretty open and shut. Proving to a jury that a vet was exaggerating or entirely faking a claim is a lot harder. Proving a lie is a lot easier than disproving a diagnosis. |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 2665611)
Not sure it is fraud if the VA gave these people a disability rating based off the VA exams.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ram/930597001/ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/one-...its-fraud.html http://www.khq.com/story/10144047/id...its-fraud-case Disability claims are based not merely on exams but on the history provided by the patient. Some disabilities, such as PTSD, are based entirely on history. The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form. |
Seems simple. If you are getting disability (or have any other issue), check yes and deal with the process. Then sleep easy knowing you're square.
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 2665611)
Not sure it is fraud if the VA gave these people a disability rating based off the VA exams.
The illegal thing is thing not reporting the medical condition to the FAA on a federal form. From a a Spokane WA newspaper article: Sebero lives in LaClede, Idaho, about 15 miles north of Sandpoint, but also owns a home on Austin Lane in Spokane, according to court documents. Sebero could not be reached for comment, and his lawyer, James Parkins, did not return a phone call. Sentencing is set for July 10. “By his actions, Mr. Sebero disgraced the system that compensates all those veterans who are truly disabled and who are fairly compensated for their injuries in service to their country,” U.S. Attorney James A. McDevitt said in a news release. Sebero was stationed at Fairchild Air Force Base before telling officials he’d lost the use of his legs while unloading a snowmobile. He began receiving monthly benefits in 1976 and was netting more than $6,000 a month when the VA halted benefits after his September 2007 examination – his first since 1978, records show. In the nearly three decades between those appointments, Sebero became a marine deputy for the Bonner County Sheriff’s Office, operated heavy equipment, flew a helicopter and owned a small-aircraft repairs business at Felts Field in Spokane, all while amassing nearly $1.5 million in VA disability benefits, according to court documents. “Records indicate that on each application for various airman’s certificates, Sebero denied any sort of medical problems or disability,” according to a news release. He opened the repairs business in 1992 after operating an excavation business for 12 years, according to the U.S. attorney’s office. Assistant U.S. Attorney Robert Ellis said in October he expected to subpoena Sebero’s two ex-wives and his current wife for the trial to testify about their sex lives with him to further debunk the paraplegic claim, according to previously published reports. Sebero was facing federal charges for inspecting planes he wasn’t authorized to inspect when authorities learned he’d been drawing disability benefits. He pleaded guilty in that case last summer and was ordered to pay $10,754 in restitution as a condition of five years probation. |
There’s a lot of military pilots receiving disability for tinnitus and other related ailments. I was told it easy, just go fill out the paperwork and get a check, I asked what about your medical? chirp chirp chirp....
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This looks a whole lot like what the Feds are REALLY mad about is bogus VA claims I am assuming they claimed those disabilities and were legitimately given a disability. What they did illegal was not disclose that on the FAA medical form; therefore there is no fraud of the VA. They lied on a federal FAA form. The guy who reports a disabling back condition to the VA but reports no back problem to the FAA has committed fraud. They have a back problem, they report the back problem to the VA, they get disability from the VA. All is good to the VA. They go to the FAA and don't report the problem - well now they have a problem with the FAA, not the VA. As for your other article - that person committed fraud against the VA and lied on the FAA forms. |
Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
(Post 2665759)
What they did illegal was not disclose that on the FAA medical form; therefore there is no fraud of the VA. They lied on a federal FAA form.
"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by the Federal Government, including VA. (Information can only be disclosed under certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise, information cannot be disclosed without your prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy...ochure_508.pdf Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...cal-facilities |
Originally Posted by 155mm
(Post 2665760)
I agree but there are laws in place such as HIPPA and the Privacy Act of 1974 that have to be adhered to in order for the FAA to retrieve that "protected information" and/or the VA to disclose it. The process the FAA used to gather or the VA used to disburse that information may or may not have been within the framework of the law ie: court order.
"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by the Federal Government, including VA. (Information can only be disclosed under certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise, information cannot be disclosed without your prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy...ochure_508.pdf Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...cal-facilities This forum is filled with stories of how telling the VA one thing and the FAA another is illegal and how pilot should be careful (and honest). This is just the latest example. I don't know what processes are in place for the exchange of information between the gov't agencies, but I knew enough to know that if I applied for, and was awarded disability for X condition from the VA, that I had better darn well tell the FAA of X condition too. |
Originally Posted by ZippyTWS
(Post 2665514)
Having read the article, each of them was receiving disability payments from the VA for conditions they told the FAA they didn't have
(3xMental Disability, 1xChronic Tension Headaches) so I'm not sure getting your heart rate going that the FAA is cross checking all your VA records is warranted. If your collecting disability for a disqualifying condition that you lied about then you should probably consider rectifying that in some way before they find out. Chill out with the sensationalism. But obvious conclusion here is that they cross-checked databases. It's possible that this started with the VA, ie THEY were looking for fraud, knew these guys were pilots, and consulted the FAA. But they defendants are not all in one geographic area... makes me think it was a systematic approach. The "sensationalism" applies if your current VA disability claim does not match your FAA 8500. That's really low hanging fruit for prosecution, not to mention emergency revocation of all airman certs. |
Originally Posted by sherpster
(Post 2665638)
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!
The TAP training and VA advocate groups tell you to maximize every possible medical discrepancy for purposes of VA disability. But if you're going to need an FAA medical, there are SOME conditions which will be show stoppers. If you're separating, you should research the FAA rules before you try to hit your VA disability rating out of the park. There are many, many things for which you can have a rating and have no trouble with the FAA. But there are few things (LOC, mental health, cardiovascular to name a few) which will be show-stoppers. I've flown with guys in the airlines with 80% ratings. |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2665728)
I assure you it is:
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/...ram/930597001/ https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/one-...its-fraud.html Idaho man pleads guilty in largest ever VA disability benefits fraud case - Spokane, North Idaho News & Weather KHQ.com Disability claims are based not merely on exams but on the history provided by the patient. Some disabilities, such as PTSD, are based entirely on history. The proof of fraud is reporting something DIFFERENT on one sworn history than is reported on the other. The guy who reports a disabling back condition to the VA but reports no back problem to the FAA has committed fraud. He may well have a serious back problem, and be entitled to disability. He might have just lied to the FAA. Each specific case could be different, and each would have to be addressed on it's own merits. But I suspect the government is operating on the assumption (reasonable in court) that the VA disabilities were diagnosed by medical professionals and are thus real... hence lying to the FAA is the charge. It's easy to prosecute someone who checked "no" on the FAA form, but is cashing a monthly check from the VA. Harder to disprove a claimed disability beyond a reasonable doubt in court. |
Originally Posted by trip
(Post 2665751)
There’s a lot of military pilots receiving disability for tinnitus and other related ailments. I was told it easy, just go fill out the paperwork and get a check, I asked what about your medical? chirp chirp chirp....
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Folks, this isn’t hard. If you claim a disqualifying condition on your VA disability, you had better reconcile that on your FAA physical every year. If you haven’t been doing that, probably time to start.
I discussed this at length with both my union FAA expert doctor that we contract with and with my highly experienced AME. They both said the same thing, it isn’t a big deal unless it is a known disqualifying condition. I have VA disability for various issues. We discuss them every year for about 30 seconds and then move on. Be honest and forthcoming. When you are separating, be mindful of things like sleep apnea and PTSD that the experts in TAP class will encourage you to claim. |
Originally Posted by 155mm
(Post 2665760)
I agree but there are laws in place such as HIPPA and the Privacy Act of 1974 that have to be adhered to in order for the FAA to retrieve that "protected information" and/or the VA to disclose it. The process the FAA used to gather or the VA used to disburse that information may or may not have been within the framework of the law ie: court order.
"Restricts disclosure of PII (personally identifiable information) that is maintained by the Federal Government, including VA. (Information can only be disclosed under certain situations permitted by law. Otherwise, information cannot be disclosed without your prior written authorization.) " https://www.oprm.va.gov/docs/Privacy...ochure_508.pdf Interesting article on the mismanagement of VA medical records: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...cal-facilities https://www.csoonline.com/article/28...h-records.html But there's a pretty obvious loophole to me... I don't think privacy act would prevent an agency from asking Treasury if you get payments from the VA. If you do, but checked "no" on the 8500, now DoJ has probable cause to subpoena your VA and FAA medical records for a detailed comparison. The system is simply not going to bend over backwards to protect airline pilots who are lying to the FAA about their medical status. Congress would quickly amend the privacy act if needed (ie high profile issue came to light). |
Could the FAA argue that an applicant for a medical certificate has given implied consent to verification, at least against any previous statements made to the Federal Government?
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Originally Posted by tomgoodman
(Post 2665838)
Could the FAA argue that an applicant for a medical certificate has given implied consent to verification, at least against any previous statements made to the Federal Government?
I think as a default... Info maintained by the FAA is NOT healthcare related. It is obtained and used to maintain aviation safety, and can probably be used in a reasonable manner for that purpose (ie shared with LE/DOJ, but not posted on the internet for all to google). Info maintained by the VA seems healthcare-related to me, and as such seems like it should be more protected (HIPA) than the same info held by the FAA. I think as a starting point, the VA should NOT allow blanket FAA/DOJ fishing expeditions to access all their data. But I suspect that some enterprising federal lawyers might possibly be able to find a loophole, especially while waving the "safety of the flying public" flag. But I don't know for sure, just know that it's complicated and there is a real risk if you're gaming the system. Point being, don't game the system and if you are, try to get it "corrected" asap. Of course, any hint of probable cause obtained by other means opens any and all records to subpoena. That may have been what happened in these cases. |
One alternative view of disability payments is that it’s compensation for injuries suffered while in the service of the government. It’s not a medical issue; it’s compensation that, in civil industry, you might settle thru lawsuits or arbitration. I had a spinal compression fracture and a fusion done as the repair. My flight surgeon was also an FAA FS. The FAA had recently added the disability payment question and he recommended never file for disability until my career as a pilot was over and done. I never did, as I never felt “disabled”, but clearly would be eligible now. A friend was badly beaten up in a T-38 ejection (Keith ate aspirin like candy), 30% disability, but still flew.
GF |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2666006)
One alternative view of disability payments is that it’s compensation for injuries suffered while in the service of the government. It’s not a medical issue; it’s compensation that, in civil industry, you might settle thru lawsuits or arbitration. I had a spinal compression fracture and a fusion done as the repair. My flight surgeon was also an FAA FS. The FAA had recently added the disability payment question and he recommended never file for disability until my career as a pilot was over and done. I never did, as I never felt “disabled”, but clearly would be eligible now. A friend was badly beaten up in a T-38 ejection (Keith ate aspirin like candy), 30% disability, but still flew.
GF But the FAA recently decided that they want to have the opportunity to review any VA (or other) disability to make their own determination as to whether they have an aeromedical impact. Their implementation has been perfectly reasonable to date from my perspective, when that box appeared and I checked it it was easy to show my AME that all of my VA items were "previously, reported, no change" on my 8500. That probably put a bunch of folks in a pickle though... if they had VA disability ratings for things that they had never reported to the FAA, and had been doing it for years. Like I said before, this is all trending in only one direction and I seriously doubt this pendulum will ever swing back. Better to confront it pro-actively, rather than wait until caught. |
This looks like the FAA was given access to the VA database of disability payments and then cross referenced everyone on VA disability to the FAA database. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the tip of the iceberg on prosecutions.
Note that all four cases involve mental/headache issues. That's likely round one of these prosecutions. If you're collecting VA disability and have an active FAA medical, I'd recommend that you call your union's medical staff and talk to them immediately. It doesn't matter if you report everything on your FAA medical, I'd still recommend doing a sanity check on this issue with your union medical staff. |
I'm continually surprised when I see pilots in the parking lot climbing into their pickup with a Disabled Veteran license plate (in the disabled parking slots right up front.)
I'm thinking the threshold must be pretty low for that plate. |
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2666076)
This looks like the FAA was given access to the VA database of disability payments and then cross referenced everyone on VA disability to the FAA database.
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2666076)
I wouldn't be surprised if this is the tip of the iceberg on prosecutions.
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2666076)
Note that all four cases involve mental/headache issues. That's likely round one of these prosecutions.
Originally Posted by Andy
(Post 2666076)
If you're collecting VA disability and have an active FAA medical, I'd recommend that you call your union's medical staff and talk to them immediately. It doesn't matter if you report everything on your FAA medical, I'd still recommend doing a sanity check on this issue with your union medical staff.
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FAA Home ▸ Offices ▸ Aviation Safety ▸ Offices ▸ Aerospace Medicine ▸ Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) Information ▸ Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners ▸ Application Process ▸ Applicant History Guide for Aviation Medical Examiners Application Process for Medical Certification Applicant History - Item 18. Medical History y. Medical Disability Benefits The applicant must report any disability benefits received, regardless of source or amount. If the applicant checks yes on this item, the FAA may verify with other Federal Agencies (ie. Social Security Administration, Veteran's Affairs) whether the applicant is receiving a disability benefit that may present a conflict in issuing an FAA medical certificate. The Examiner must document the specifics and nature of the disability in findings in Item 60. Page last modified: August 20, 2013 3:15:11 PM EDT This seems to be the testimony to Congress that lead to the requirement to reveal all disability payments being added to the FAA medical history: https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/defaul...ony_july17.pdf |
Originally Posted by sherpster
(Post 2665638)
I have talked with retiring military folks who are stressing over VA disability and getting a FAA physical. The FAA will give you a Class 1 medical even if you have all kinds of crap wrong with you. Just report it and deal with it. If you havent reported it yet then contact your regional FAA flight medical office and tell them the TRUTH today and they will get you squared away. They are the medical side of the FAA, not the enforcement side. If it is true these 3 guys were major airline pilots then can you imagine what a dumb move this was for these guys to not report their conditions?????? I have no idea if they will go to prison or not but it would not surprise me if they do. They say the VA hands out disability like candy (true) but the FAA hands out Class 1's like candy also. They dont care about your knee, wrist, elbow, or whatever else you have wrong with you. If you are claiming some mental issue with the VA then maybe you shouldnt be flying until you get that squared away. JUST BE HONEST PEOPLE!
A patient who has been diagnosed with psychiatric problems, for example, will face an uphill battle in obtaining an FAA medical certificate, particularly if medication is involved. Likewise, numerous physical disabilities claimed from the VA will impact one's ability to hold medical certification for flying. One should be aware that having been diagnosed, and having declared it, there's no getting around it on the medical application, or the consequences for declaring it on the medical application. The single most common disability for veterans is hearing loss. Little wonder, for those who have been in situations conducive to hearing loss, which is a great deal of military operations, combat or otherwise. This also impacts the ability to hold a medical certificate. Fortunately in that case, it's testable and fairly straight forward; not so with many other conditions. Yes, be honest, yes, don't hide anything, and yes, declare it when applying for a medical certificate, but also be prepared for the steps necessary to obtain the medical, including waivers, additional testing, and so forth. The disability may be worth a little money from the VA, but it may also cost a lot going in for the FAA medical, and may cost on a recurring basis. Anyone considering pursuing a flying career should take that into account, if looking ahead down the road. |
You are correct. Physical issues are generally easy. Mental not so much.
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2665818)
Maybe, maybe not.
He may well have a serious back problem, and be entitled to disability. He might have just lied to the FAA. Each specific case could be different, and each would have to be addressed on it's own merits. But I suspect the government is operating on the assumption (reasonable in court) that the VA disabilities were diagnosed by medical professionals and are thus real... hence lying to the FAA is the charge. It's easy to prosecute someone who checked "no" on the FAA form, but is cashing a monthly check from the VA. Harder to disprove a claimed disability beyond a reasonable doubt in court. |
Originally Posted by Excargodog
(Post 2666156)
Bold type added. Apparently this has been going on to a greater or lesser degree for five years.
This seems to be the testimony to Congress that lead to the requirement to reveal all disability payments being added to the FAA medical history: https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/defaul...ony_july17.pdf GF |
Originally Posted by WhisperJet
(Post 2665729)
Seems simple. If you are getting disability (or have any other issue), check yes and deal with the process. Then sleep easy knowing you're square.
HIPAA is just going to be a speed bump in the rush to Protect the Public. IMO if you are under 60, and especially if you are under 55, everything needs to line up. It is just a matter of time. |
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
(Post 2666289)
That question has been on the FAA medical application for decades.
GF 18(x) asks about illness, disability, or surgery. You could easily (beyond a reasonable doubt anyway) claim that you did not have a disability per se, even while collecting VA benefits if the condition was not significantly limiting. Per our previous discussion about the real nature of VA "disability". |
Originally Posted by 742Dash
(Post 2666310)
IMO if you are under 60, and especially if you are under 55, everything needs to line up. It is just a matter of time.
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2666288)
Do you think a jury will be influenced by a medical form where the plaintiff states he has no such medical issue?
But it's a moot point, with the addition of 18(y) whether you have a "disability" or any medical condition is irrelevant, you have to disclose the fact that you're getting benefits. Very hard to weasel out of that fact if YOU applied for VA benefits AND the fed is depositing money in your checking account every month... |
Yes, unfortunately there are douche-bags in the military who game the system for $$. Most of the VA claims are legitimate. Some are not. In my outfit we just ran a guy off who was getting an 80% disability, but STILL managing to pass a Class II military flight physical and was flying as a line pilot.
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2666288)
Do you think a jury will be influenced by a medical form where the plaintiff states he has no such medical issue?
If the signer has previously stated on paper that he or she has a disability (VA) and has accepted money for the disability, it's very hard to create any semblance of reasonable doubt that the signer wasn't fully aware when claiming no disability to the FAA. The paper trail is all there. Whether or not the signer tries to say he or she has no disability is irrelevant; it's all there on paper, signed, sealed, and now, delivered. Some don't get it, but sign that form, and you're making a legal statement. Sign your logbook or put information in your logbook, you've signed a legal document, fully admissible. Call the tower after landing, and you're recorded. It's evidence, and send back that 10-day response to the inspector's initial enquiry about a potential violation, and you've just submitted a legal statement that will be used against you. Say something in the cockpit, the CVR picks it up. You've just made a legal statement. Sign the log at the end of the flight; that's a legal document. It's evidence. All of it. As clear, and as sure as a fingerprint, a smoking gun, or blood on the pant leg. It's all legal evidence, and yes, a jury can be convinced with evidence. In fact, in the face of the evidence, a jury is left with little choice, and in the case of a grand jury, the case is presented without opposition. Take the VA benefits, if merited; that's what it's for. No harm, no crime, no foul. Just don't lie about it later or attempt to have the cake, and eat it too. That cake is evidence. |
Originally Posted by rickair7777
(Post 2666382)
No, less than ten years. A quick look at my records shows question 18(y) was not on the form in 2008. That asks about disability *benefits*.
18(x) asks about illness, disability, or surgery. You could easily (beyond a reasonable doubt anyway) claim that you did not have a disability per se, even while collecting VA benefits if the condition was not significantly limiting. Per our previous discussion about the real nature of VA "disability". Re: “benefits”, are we talking about money only, or do “benefits” include such things as VA loans, free tuition, etc? If someone has a “0%” rating and receiving no money are they on the radar? |
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