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Originally Posted by bretthull
(Post 1648528)
You must be a PSA pilot. So who will we all hate next? Seems like everyone but PSA has said NO to concessions. There aren't that many other airlines out there to be asked to take a similar deal. There's a legitimate reason why everyone is angry with PSA.
False. I'm furloughed from a Part 135, but thanks for assuming you know me. I'm not defending PSA. I understand it may sound like I am. Just trying to look at the big picture. |
Originally Posted by ExitPoint
(Post 1648543)
False. I'm furloughed from a Part 135, but thanks for assuming you know me.
I'm not defending PSA. I understand it may sound like I am. Just trying to look at the big picture. The "big picture" is PSA pilots, by a large margin, voted in a concessionary contract. Their contract was not even due for renegotiation, and every other pilot group has voted NO to any concessions, in an attempt to finally stop managements continual efforts to lower the pay and benefits for the profession! |
Originally Posted by ExitPoint
(Post 1648540)
I understand your frustration, I really do. When I was doing the 121 regional thing (Piedmont - the suckiest of the suck), I had a lot of pointless hatred and animosity towards other pilot groups too. Having been Part 135 for a couple years now, I've had a chance to look back and realize how ridiculous and childish I was being. Nothing against you, hell, I don't even know ya! I just think one of these days most of us will look back and be like, "eh, I guess it wasn't that big of a deal".
I don't know, maybe its the Rolling Rock typing, but is PSA's "new" contract REALLY that bad...? Compared to what I'm used to, PDT, its not that bad at all. Ok, I will say the pay caps blow, but other than that? |
Originally Posted by skyxbomb
(Post 1648796)
The well educated haters hate the fact that majority of PSA pilots voted in concessions for job security and pay cap. The whining clueless keyboard warriors say PSA have crappy pay and contract when in reality, PSA pilots probably make more than most other regionals except horizon, awac skywestand possibly expressjet. And no you shouldn't go by the apc pay scale. Our contract is fine but just sucks we couldn't hold the line.
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your info is incorrect
Originally Posted by Systemized
(Post 1648397)
PSA doesn't have enough Sim time or IOE check airman available. Adding to that, some new hires are needing extra sims and extra IOE time. New hire pass rate is around 60%.
The IOE times are in line with 2005 and 2006 IOE times. There has been 2 that needed significant extra IOE and the company was willing to give it to them. Not enough sims? We would like to have one more so PSA has another one coming that will be up and running August 11th in the US Airways training Center in CLT. Not enough Check Airman? That was true 2 months ago but that has been corrected. Currently hiring and training Check Airmen for the new sim. Our recruiters are under strict orders not to to promise anything when it comes to upgrade time. We will lose an average of 4 pilots per month to USA Airways. We lose 2 to 4 a month to other airlines. We are adding 30 CRJ 900's there is an option for 40 more. You can do the math. That is the only thing anyone in recruiting or training is authorized to say. This is a great place to work with some of the best quality of life provisions in any contract. |
Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1648897)
Fixed it for ya........
There's about 15 regional airlines out there. I didn't count Great Lakes. If you can only name 4 who have better pay than PSA what exactly is the issue? I hate that AAG put us in the position to take concessions but we are still in the top 5ish, so top 30% of our industry section even after taking concessions. People lose things all the time to better their long term position. AAG gave up slots in DCA and JFK, professional sports teams give up top players for prospects. Our vote obviously didn't effect or influence other votes since 3 other airlines voted no even after PSA voted yes. In fact, I'd wager that if we had voted no things would've turned out differently. We are much smaller than eagle. If we had voted no AAG could've immediately started a drawdown. We only have 47 acft. If that had happened it would've put a lot more teeth behind AAG's threat to shut Eagle down as well. Something to think about. |
Originally Posted by skyxbomb
(Post 1648796)
The well educated haters hate the fact that majority of PSA pilots voted in concessions for job security and pay cap. The whining clueless keyboard warriors say PSA have crappy pay and contract when in reality, PSA pilots probably make more than most other regionals except horizon, awac and possibly expressjet. And no you shouldn't go by the apc pay scale. Our contract is fine but just sucks we couldn't hold the line.
Now it's obvious why they all want the costs of Pinnacle, but PSA is mentioned in the same breath. The reason why Envoy is having the problems they are having is because of the cost structure PSA has, due to the contract you recently voted in. That comes right from management and our MEC. I would argue that Envoy captains make was much as anyone at PSA or elsewhere especially when scheduling is offering 1.5 on a regular basis, not to mention the unblocking of all OT for FO's and captians. I'm not trying to start a whole new war between PSA and Envoy, but if your contract is NOT concessionary why would management want to make our contracts like yours? And to tell you the truth I don't know a lot about your contract so I really am asking a serious question. |
Originally Posted by SkylineAviation
(Post 1648955)
Honest question, I read a lot of people here defending PSA and its current contract saying how much money you make and how things are good because of upwards progression, pay, QOL, security, etc, etc. If that's all true why does management want to break the contract of other regional's, and the model being PSA and/or Pinnacle? Management specifically uses the names of the those two companies in how they want to arrange and model our contracts to mirror yours.
Now it's obvious why they all want the costs of Pinnacle, but PSA is mentioned in the same breath. The reason why Envoy is having the problems they are having is because of the cost structure PSA has, due to the contract you recently voted in. That comes right from management and our MEC. I would argue that Envoy captains make was much as anyone at PSA or elsewhere especially when scheduling is offering 1.5 on a regular basis, not to mention the unblocking of all OT for FO's and captians. I'm not trying to start a whole new war between PSA and Envoy, but if your contract is NOT concessionary why would management want to make our contracts like yours? And to tell you the truth I don't know a lot about your contract so I really am asking a serious question. They are just now realizing what kind of cost this thing really is. When management across the industry look at PSA's "cost structure" they see one thing: Pay caps. They are blind to everything else because they are convinced that this is the holy grail that is going to save the regional model. In the case of Pinnacle they may have something. Not so with PSA. Email your negotiators and tell them to get a copy and paste of PSA's scheduling section. I bet it's a non-starter. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1648984)
No one has anything like we have in the entire industry. They literally had NO CLUE how much our scheduling section was going to cost them last summer when the negotiations for our most recent TA were getting started. It's not just pay either. They'll need more staff.
They are just now realizing what kind of cost this thing really is. When management across the industry look at PSA's "cost structure" they see one thing: Pay caps. They are blind to everything else because they are convinced that this is the holy grail that is going to save the regional model. In the case of Pinnacle they may have something. Not so with PSA. Email your negotiators and tell them to get a copy and paste of PSA's scheduling section. I bet it's a non-starter. So take away that section your contract would otherwise be concessionary and which is why they want to mirror your contract (without the scheduling section) for all other regional's. Would that be correct? If I'm not mistaken, you guys have incremental increase YOY in insurance costs and pay caps. Which is to say each year you take a hit in pay and when the music stops in hiring, or someone gets stuck at PSA, they begin to lose money every year because of the pay cap. Would that also be correct? |
I'm sure envoy or other decent regional pilots can make as much if not more due to the premium pay during your days off. The only saving grace in our contract is the scheduling section like pagey mentioned. We don't need to work on our days off to get premium pay. We just drop a 4 day trip and pick it back up and get 1.5 pay with same amount of days off as our original award. Or you can have 16-17 days off for the month if you need a break.
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Originally Posted by skyxbomb
(Post 1649014)
I'm sure envoy or other decent regional pilots can make as much if not more due to the premium pay during your days off. The only saving grace in our contract is the scheduling section like pagey mentioned. We don't need to work on our days off to get premium pay. We just drop a 4 day trip and pick it back up and get 1.5 pay with same amount of days off as our original award. Or you can have 16-17 days off for the month if you need a break.
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Originally Posted by SkylineAviation
(Post 1649019)
I'll admit, that's a pretty good deal. I just can't imagine how management negotiators missed that one or how they're current not trying to think of a way to change it.
I don't know what you are referring to in Eagle's contract that has been violated but I can assume it's the flow. I don't know anything about that but perhaps the language is a little grey.
Originally Posted by SkylineAviation
(Post 1649005)
So basically what you're saying is that the scheduling section of your contract was/is unaccounted for during negotiations and is still unaccounted for with management. Hence the reason your contract is not concessionary. But if you guys are doing so well with it, can't you foresee management making changes to it for their benefit. I believe AAG management has proven they will change things at their will only for a union to later grieve which takes months and years to resolve (at least at Eagle that's how it works).
So take away that section your contract would otherwise be concessionary and which is why they want to mirror your contract (without the scheduling section) for all other regional's. Would that be correct? If I'm not mistaken, you guys have incremental increase YOY in insurance costs and pay caps. Which is to say each year you take a hit in pay and when the music stops in hiring, or someone gets stuck at PSA, they begin to lose money every year because of the pay cap. Would that also be correct? The insurance sharing is definitely another concession. The full amount will take effect in 2017 and will cost me 8 dollars more a month than what I'm paying now. I'm single. The most expensive family plan is looking at about 40 more per month. So it's there but its difficult to argue that its significant. It was not right for AA to come to us for concessions given their financial standing but I can understand why people at PSA voted yes. It benefits a large majority of the pilot group, and those that it negatively effects will, in theory, be at AA within a couple years whereas they had pretty much no chance before. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1649059)
Of course they've thought of ways to change it, that doesn't mean they can change it. The same way they can't just say "welp I think we're actually going to pay everyone $1 less per hour next month".
I don't know what you are referring to in Eagle's contract that has been violated but I can assume it's the flow. I don't know anything about that but perhaps the language is a little grey. I never said our contract wasn't concessionary. It certainly is. What I'm asking is, why all the PSA bashing when we are still in the top 3rd of regionals compensation wise? We gave a little to get a little. Our union has a longer term strategy where they think they can get not only increased hiring requirements from the new AA but also some give back on the concessions. The insurance sharing is definitely another concession. The full amount will take effect in 2017 and will cost me 8 dollars more a month than what I'm paying now. I'm single. The most expensive family plan is looking at about 40 more per month. So it's there but its difficult to argue that its significant. It was not right for AA to come to us for concessions given their financial standing but I can understand why people at PSA voted yes. It benefits a large majority of the pilot group, and those that it negatively effects will, in theory, be at AA within a couple years whereas they had pretty much no chance before. |
The TA signed has some major issues.
One is that we have a 12 year pay cap. Not everyone at PSA has a pay cap of 11-12 years. But just those who are under the 10 year mark. The problem with this is that we belong to a union. And we should all be treated equally. Now why does a senior Captain deserve 18 year pay ($10/hr) and others don't? It goes against the whole philosophy of the union. The SAP is great but it isn't without the problems. Just don't plan on changing your schedule around if you have a medical or training due. Huge flaw that our MEC has seemed to have given I up on. On paper our 12 year Captain pay is equal to endeavor. The lowest in the industry. Yes you can make more with the SAP but if you drop down to 65 hrs and don't pick up any time you will be getting paid 65hrs at the lowest rate in the industry. Our per diem is also one of the lowest. But.... If you want to work hard to make extra money then the opportunity exists. For now. But having a job that pays the mortgage is great. We have seen Mesa and Republic grow on the airways side. Look what JO did with Mesa pilots. How many gotlaid off? Republic with a 10 year old contract. Focus on helping them get the SAP and we will all be in a better place. |
Originally Posted by seafeye
(Post 1649088)
The TA signed has some major issues.
One is that we have a 12 year pay cap. Not everyone at PSA has a pay cap of 11-12 years. But just those who are under the 10 year mark. The problem with this is that we belong to a union. And we should all be treated equally. Now why does a senior Captain deserve 18 year pay ($10/hr) and others don't? It goes against the whole philosophy of the union. The SAP is great but it isn't without the problems. Just don't plan on changing your schedule around if you have a medical or training due. Huge flaw that our MEC has seemed to have given I up on. On paper our 12 year Captain pay is equal to endeavor. The lowest in the industry. Yes you can make more with the SAP but if you drop down to 65 hrs and don't pick up any time you will be getting paid 65hrs at the lowest rate in the industry. Our per diem is also one of the lowest. But.... If you want to work hard to make extra money then the opportunity exists. For now. But having a job that pays the mortgage is great. We have seen Mesa and Republic grow on the airways side. Look what JO did with Mesa pilots. How many gotlaid off? Republic with a 10 year old contract. Focus on helping them get the SAP and we will all be in a better place. The training thing can be fixed by dropping the carry out trip that touches your month of training. They haven't given up on anything, they gave solutions. You don't have to "work hard" to make extra money. I'm at ~95 hours for may with 18 days off. I'm right at 65 hours block. Some people definitely got screwed by this deal and you are one of them considering your longevity. You also have a very good chance of being at AA within 2 years. If you don't want AA well you already got hired somewhere else so there's that=) This deal is not perfect, and probably should never have happened but we are also not pinnacle, or even close. |
I'm military with only 1600 hours, looking to move to GSP, PSA caught my eye due to proximity to CLT. Is it really as bad as people say? I realize its a pay cut, but the pay is bad everywhere it looks like.
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Originally Posted by bababouey
(Post 1649543)
I'm military with only 1600 hours, looking to move to GSP, PSA caught my eye due to proximity to CLT. Is it really as bad as people say? I realize its a pay cut, but the pay is bad everywhere it looks like.
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that the company sucks, don't come here, etc...
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Originally Posted by bababouey
(Post 1649551)
that the company sucks, don't come here, etc...
Being able to drive to work is about as good as it gets in the regional world. |
Originally Posted by bababouey
(Post 1649551)
that the company sucks, don't come here, etc...
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Originally Posted by rickt86
(Post 1649558)
The rest if the industry pilot wise will despise you.
It doesn't look as if PSA-Envoy relations are ideal to say the least. Seems to me that most pilots in other carriers including the majority of Eagle pilots get along in the real world, despite differences in opinion. |
Can somebody please briefly explain to me (a non-121-airline pilot) what PSA's SAP is, how it works, and why you PSA guys like it so much? I'm genuinely trying to understand how it works.
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Originally Posted by rickt86
(Post 1649558)
The rest if the industry on this forum wise will despise you.
Every single person I've met since this all went down has been a professional, and acted as such. Regional and mainline alike. |
Originally Posted by SMACFUM
(Post 1649634)
Can somebody please briefly explain to me (a non-121-airline pilot) what PSA's SAP is, how it works, and why you PSA guys like it so much? I'm genuinely trying to understand how it works.
SAP Schedule Adjustment Period. A 24 hour period that you can: adjust your schedule with great freedom. Work more or less. On the days you want to or not want to. Trade inefficient 4 day trips for efficient 3 day trips. Get more money and work less days. |
Not trying to start a riot...honest question...will the SAP be around for awhile or is that a loophole that could possibly be done away with?
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Originally Posted by Frick
(Post 1651036)
Not trying to start a riot...honest question...will the SAP be around for awhile or is that a loophole that could possibly be done away with?
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So how much could one expect to credit using the SAP with 13 to 14 days off per month?
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Originally Posted by Frick
(Post 1651227)
So how much could one expect to credit using the SAP with 13 to 14 days off per month?
If you were to add 4, or 5 critical days to your schedule you'd get 1.5x pay at 4 hours min for each day. So assuming the 85 starting point you could be at 105-110 minimum. If the days you added were critical. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1651235)
I have 18 off for may with 95ish, but I think 85 with 18 is more sustainable.
If you were to add 4, or 5 critical days to your schedule you'd get 1.5x pay at 4 hours min for each day. So assuming the 85 starting point you could be at 105-110 minimum. If the days you added were critical. Finding 8 hour days is tough. If you had 4 days only worth 4 hours then your daily average would need to be 9.85/day to make 95hrs. Realistically if you work 15 days in a month you will make 75hrs credit. More if you move or shift to critical days. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1649668)
I fixed that for you....
Every single person I've met since this all went down has been a professional, and acted as such. Regional and mainline alike. I've not had a one PSA guy check in and say hi to us in the cockpit on a commute, since the YES vote....hmmmm, wonder why? |
Originally Posted by seafeye
(Post 1651327)
You must be including a critical day or two in there. 12 days working and getting 95hrs credit is 7.91hrs/day.
Finding 8 hour days is tough. If you had 4 days only worth 4 hours then your daily average would need to be 9.85/day to make 95hrs. Realistically if you work 15 days in a month you will make 75hrs credit. More if you move or shift to critical days. I worked 3 4 days in may. All paid 30+ hours. Edit: I actually got discplaced off of one 4 day that was to be critical. I would guess I won't get critical pay for it. |
Originally Posted by Atlantic
(Post 1651339)
What a pile if BS....PSA are the scum of the indusrty right now, and although mainline airlines outside if AAG might be clueless, the regional guys aren't. All captains I have flown with at L-EGL will all tell you to FO, if you are a PSA guy begging for a W1 ride.
I've not had a one PSA guy check in and say hi to us in the cockpit on a commute, since the YES vote....hmmmm, wonder why? I've jumpseated on EGL, XJT, RAH, Mesa, SWA, JB, and Airways . All recently. Nothing but professional, courteous behavior. The only tough guys I've come across are of the keyboard warrior type.....like yourself. FWIW we aren't required to check in with you since we can ride as a regular non-rev on AA and EGL now. Have a nice night. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1651346)
Cool man. Thanks for the input.
I've jumpseated on EGL, XJT, RAH, Mesa, SWA, JB, and Airways . All recently. Nothing but professional, courteous behavior. The only tough guys I've come across are of the keyboard warrior type.....like yourself. FWIW we aren't required to check in with you since we can ride as a regular non-rev on AA and EGL now. Have a nice night. As usual, you have no clue to both sides of the story. P.s...try not to be so patnonising, PSA guys surely deserve a better cheerleader than this?! |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1651346)
FWIW we aren't required to check in with you since we can ride as a regular non-rev on AA and EGL now. |
Originally Posted by Atlantic
(Post 1651351)
Well, we still have to fill out a JS form for all US Air operated flights, even though we are meant to be one 'happy family' now. This means we have to stop by and say hi. Shows how much you know!
As usual, you have no clue to both sides of the story. P.s...try not to be so patnonising, PSA guys surely deserve a better cheerleader than this?! I'm not really sure what is patronizing about what I said but you are calling ME out after calling us scum? What makes you think you can say something like that to a group of people and not get a response? You started this conversation with nothing to contribute to the thread other than bashing. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1651356)
You started this conversation with nothing to contribute to the thread other than bashing. Not wasting any more of my time on this. |
Originally Posted by Atlantic
(Post 1651377)
A small pilot group screws over a big pilot group, then wonders why they get bashed?
Not wasting any more of my time on this. It looks like the only screwing being done is by AAG. It was a waste of time for you to post on this thread in the first place. |
Originally Posted by pagey
(Post 1651383)
You guys still got your no vote everyone wanted. You were never getting CRJs due to AAG wanting single fleet type at wholly owns.
It looks like the only screwing being done is by AAG. It was a waste of time for you to post on this thread in the first place. |
Originally Posted by Atlantic
(Post 1651377)
A small pilot group screws over a big pilot group, then wonders why they get bashed?
Not wasting any more of my time on this. Either you're really uneducated or you're just ignorant. Or both... |
Originally Posted by DENpilot
(Post 1651445)
Oh wow, you're a piece of work. Just keep trying to justify your actions and make yourself feel better.
All I said was that PSA's vote obviously didn't influence Eagle's. They voted no. That's what everyone wanted and that's what they got......A no vote. If I did feel the need to justify anything that I do it certainly wouldn't be to placate you, or anyone else on this hostility laced, hate filled forum. These topics are here because someone either wants help, or is interested in information but you clowns come on here and blow up every thread with your uninformed, fact-less, ignorant statements. "What does PSA stand for"..... Give me a break. |
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