ExpressJet and Chautauqua, and timing
 

I am a 20 year old flight instructor in Fort Pierce, FL. I am about to start a program that will get me through to either Express Jet or Chautauqua. The program holder is RAA (Regional Airline Academy). Does anybody know anyone that commutes during their reserve period for either Chaut or Express Jet? I live in the PBI/FLL and willing to be (MCO) based areas. I REALLY want to get on w/ Chautauqua because they have two bases right next door to me (FLL/MCO). But if things are roses at Express Jet (EJ?) then I will most likely bite the bullet and pay my dues away from home. The problem is this: Like most are aware, being a single man is pratically the only way to survive the first year.... I am engaged and plan on getting married Feb 1st.... any and all input on whether to get married first, then try to get on w/ chaut or express jet, or should I get on w/ one of them first then try to get married? I have a feeling getting married after getting a job w/ one of them would nearly be impossible.

Any input on Chautauqua? I am very close to starting a program w/ RAA that will supposedly let me "skip" the 23 minimum age rule (I'm 20). I want to hear the good/bad/ugly about Chautauqua, the fair word on them. I have heard nothing but good things about Express Jet. So how about Chautauqua?

What does anyone think of RAA (Regional Airline Academy)? Any word on how legit RAA is as far as their claims that I will be able to bypass the 23 year age limit for Chautauqua? Or does anyone have their recruiting number so I can call PERSONALLY and ask if they will honor such a claim. I feel that I am at a cross-roads in my life... and I need to make the right decisions to make everything work out in the long run. I dont CARE about hourly pay.... I care about where I live and as long as I am going to get Capt. when I turn 23, then I have 2 1/2 years waiting to be one anyhow due to age on the ATP! Anyhow, please fill me in guys/gals. I really appreciate the help and support.
Best Regards,
Jason Leonard
A guy who wants to do it RIGHT.

I thought the same when Im 23 I want to be capt but reality is XJT is a long upgrade probably 5 years at least only upgrade fast time is small commuters like where I work 6 months in a DHC-6,1 year 1900 or try colgan. But forget fast upgrades im 21 now and am debating moving on or staying put till 23 cause I have many friends Skywest, XJT, and its long maybe not skywest right now I thinks it could be 2 years but when ASA gets merged or Delta goes belly up Eagle guys will upgrade faster I bet.

RAA like alot of other flight schools have "Agreements" with some regionals which MAY garantee you an INTERVIEW (not a job) when you meet that particular airline minimums and as long as that particular airline is hiring! Then again you can get yourself an interview ON YOUR OWN if you meet minimums and they are hiring! ... RAA is not offering you a short-cut or anything different than what you could do on your own (after you read the fine print) ;)

If you want to do it right, don't be in such a hurry to make the left seat. Experience makes a huge difference.

don't get married and take chautaqua if you don't need to commute.commuting will drain your days off.all regionals are bad. period.if you have heard great things about any regional, try talking with 5 year old captains..........you'll see how they are all the same.

don't get married at 20,are you nuts?do you know how much fun you'll be missing out at the regionals????? remember, life at the regional is only make good by all the good times you;ll have as a single man , the companies per se all suck. do not get married, and finish you 4 year degree.

good luck.

Keep in mind that you can't upgrade or hold an ATP until you are 23 anyway. Going to an airline where you could potentially upgrade in a year or 2 really won't do you any good.

If I were you, I would not get married until you get a job. I have friends who have turned down class dates and bypassed on seniority because of their significant others. Seniority is everything...period. Your fiancee should understand how important your career is to you, and if she doesn't now, she won't later in life when you're gone for a week at a time either.

DO NOT go to RAA or participate in any other pay-for-training program. Continue to flight instruct until you have the time, and come in through the front door like everyone else. You are young enough, do it the old fashioned way. Pay-for-training is killing the industry. You should get paid to fly, not pay someone else so you can fly a jet. The company you decide to work for should provide any training you need to perform your job over and above the basic hour requirements you may need to get the job (of course, I feel that way about buying a 737 type as well). That's my 2 cents...take it for what it's worth.

Dude,

To qualify, I am a 34 year old Cap. that got dang lucky.

1) If this really is the right girl, by all means get get married. As an old friend told me once, the right girl at the wrong time beats the $hit out of the wrong girl at the right time.

2) Make sure you have a really well developed plan B, C, D, E, etc. Do you have any idea how many times your original plan is going to fall to crap???? Of course you don't, or you'd never pose that question on this forum.

3) Any deal that is too good to be true, really is too good to be true. But of course, in your heart of hearts, you already knew that.

Respectfully,


JayDub

Yeah, nice catch on the age limit. I was thinking that very thing as I was reading his origional post. He should go somehwere decent, do his 2-3 years since he's only 20 or whatever, then upgrade. I can't imagine sitting right seat for a 21-22 year old kid.....for many reasons. Also, we have another classic case of someone not caring about how low he is paid. We all know what that has lead to.

Professional,


DO NOT, repeat DO NOT give any money to these scum sucking sons of a motherless goat. Places like these are a major cog in the machine that wishes to pillage what is left of this industry. A job is not worth your soul, or the 20, 30, 40 or 100 grand you're about to drop......and it's been said correctly : THERE IS NO JOB WAITING FOR YOU AT THE END. Anyone can get an interview. You will be hated by about 75 percent(at least) of the people you MIGHT end up working with who earned their place in the world. There is no quick fix.....the quick fixers are killing our profession. Head over to flightinfo.com and do a thread search on PFT (pay for training). I'm already tempted to call you a loser, but I'll wait until you attend day one at RAA. Makes me sick.

And you are not a professional if you don't acare about the $$ you will be making. This is my profession, don't bring me down to your level because you don't care about being able to support yourself with dignity.

Hard Road
 

TPP,

You could take the hard road and end up sour and mean like some of us. You could also try to buy a job and end up with nothing in the end. You might pass on marriage and wake up one day fat, 40 and alone. There is risk in every path but the one that is the riskiest of all is doing nothing. We all have to put our money down and see where the cards take us.


The world belongs to those who take risk. However, it hurts really bad if it doesnt work out so have a few back up plans too.

SkyHigh

Warning
 

Wow ! Warning !,

Hey I'm supposed to be the dark and negative guy here. Where did you come from? Besides the term you are looking for is "working hobby". People who don't care about the income side of aviation to me are considered to be those who are trying to reduce our industry into a working hobby.

Didn't you hear that we are all supposed to do the job simply for the love of aviation? It is shameful to suggest otherwise. Why the thought of having monetary desires associated with a career in aviation is preposterous. We are all supposed to be monks of the sky living humble and modest lives thankful every day for another opportunity to accomplish another originating check list.


SkyHigh

That just about sums up why this profession is in shambles.

For a guy who wants to do it RIGHT, you really are considering doing all of the things that are WRONG.

Paying for training and experience that will get you an airline job is WRONG.

Only being worried about PIC time is WRONG. You should get paid a fair wage for the work that you do. The market determines what that is, but right now there are too many that think that "just getting the foot in the door" will help out your career prospects. The problem is that too many people think that way now, and the career is dying.

Spamman
 

Spamman,

Yea but everyone knows that the regionals are just a stepping stone. The only real money is in the big leagues, so who cares about CRJ pay? The only thing that matters is minimizing the pain. 10K extra per year is nothing compared to a fast upgrade. Getting to the left seat is the only thing that will get you out of that hell hole. I wouldn't have taken 15K/year more if it meant a 3 month upgrade delay. The dude is right. The regionals never were meant to be a career. Management wants you to leave. That is why they are so nonchalant about abusing the workers. Get in get the time and get out as fast as possible.

SkyHigh

^^^^Let the stranger take this one...
 

A stepping stone? Since when.....not since about September of 2001. That's the shortsightedness that has ruined the entire biz. Don't you see that these "regional jets" are now the size of 737s and DC9s!? And management has got people flying them for a little over $30/hour. Now the mainline carriers can funnel money to their feeders and get them to cover the larger (and continually larger) domestic markets for a FRACTION of the cost(labor wise), utilizing the CR9s and E190s. Now the "regional jet" that you fly at your "regional airline" is keeping you around longer and management is laughing about it. You know why? Because quick fix idiots like this guy just wanted to get out in a hurry. And he fell for it. We should never have allowed anything larger than 70 seats @ the "regional" level. It only serves a subversive end.

So there goes the 'stepping stone' argument. PFTers and others like you have ruined the ENTIRE industry. We used to think that you just made the regionals suck, but mainlines all over the country have seen what you'll do when they begin to lube up. Congratulations: you're the horse that management's riding in the race to the bottom, and you're winning.

Freaking hack.

Oh Man !!!
 

Warning,

I don't even know where to begin. I wish I had more time. Perhaps you are holding on to tight to something that was never meant to be. The regionals never were meant to be a career. Management knows it and so do most pilots. The pay is low and working conditions are bad and that is for a reason. They don't want you to get to comfortable. For a brief time Comair won a place in the sun (just Barely), but now it is gone. The pilots at DAL and NWA want the RJ's and as many surmise the age of the regional airline as a growing force are coming to an end. If you can't convert your time at a regional into a job at a good company then its over. Your time is up. If you stay then you are going to have to accept an impoverished and over worked life. You have no support. Irregardless of seat per mile earnings and feeder arguments. You will find just as many big plane drivers that will tell you just the opposite. It is all meaningless and there will never be unity among regional pilots because to the majority it just a stepping stone. They just want to upgrade quickly and have their shot at the big time. The kid is smart. Get in and get out. Upgrade is everything.

SkyHigh

I wanted to upgrade when I was 23 too, but I didn't until I was 25. Then I was transitioned back to the right seat and then furloughed...now I have perspective. :rolleyes:

Irregardless? Try going back to the 3rd grade. That ain't even a word.


The argument is this and it's the point you missed.... the regionals are no longer the stepping stone that YOU'RE holding on to. Especially as they get bigger and bigger equipment. End of story.


Upgrades and all of that aside.

That is the attitude that ruined the industry. Can't you see that your arguement is one step away from paying for PIC time as a "stepping stone"?

Hey skyhigh! How about this? We could all apply to SWA and JetBlue. We don't want to work for the pay they make now... we're willing to do it for $40K/year less since after all it is flying the "Big Iron" and hey... it's only a stepping stone to the 747/777/A340/A380.

You're arguement is why 1/3 of the pilots in this country QUALIFY FOR FOOD STAMPS AND SHARE HOMES WITH 5 OTHER PILOTS!!!

Wake up and smell the coffee dude! Where does the cycle end? How about flight instructors work for free? (After all they are only building time- it's a stepping stone.) I have an idea... let's not pay first officers either. They can pay their dues in the right seat. And captains at a regional... nah... they shouldn't be making what they do. It's a stepping stone.

Good luck finding that job at a "major". Last I checked, most of them were in BK and furloughing...

Spamman/Warning
 

Spam and Warning

It seems like you guys are getting the picture. Someday even SWA and the others will be paying less than they are now, so you are dreaming if you think that the regionals will ever make a good place to work. Someone asked "where will the cycle end"? The writing is on the wall. Anyone can see it if you are interested in looking. The regionals and commuters have always payed low and always will. They are entry level jobs and while there you need to motivate to move on as fast as possible. It is even more foolish to think that someone who can get hired with only 600 TT to expect to get anything more than total abuse in all categories. You guys are living in a dream land. Get your 1000 hours of turbine PIC and get out. There is nothing else there for you. I don't know what else to say if you can't see it for yourself. The sun is setting on our profession there are too many true believers out there. Pilot licenses are easy to get now. Supply and demand, end of story.

SkyHigh

PS Warning, I added the following from dictionary.com for your convienience.


ir·re·gard·less ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-gärdls)
adv. Nonstandard
Regardless.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Probably blend of irrespective, and regardless.]
Usage Note: Irregardless is a word that many mistakenly believe to be correct usage in formal style, when in fact it is used chiefly in nonstandard speech or casual writing. Coined in the United States in the early 20th century, it has met with a blizzard of condemnation for being an improper yoking of irrespective and regardless and for the logical absurdity of combining the negative ir- prefix and -less suffix in a single term. Although one might reasonably argue that it is no different from words with redundant affixes like debone and unravel, it has been considered a blunder for decades and will probably continue to be so.

Just to set the record straight, I was a 600 hour wonder (Aviation Degree, Intern, 660TT/68ME/+ 45 level C/D sim time- that I didn't pay for BTW). I was hired into the CRJ and found that my QOL/Pay was quite sufficient. Of course those were different days.

The continual downturn is why I bailed out of the airlines in the first place. Forget flying for the majors... find a good corporate gig. Pays better, home just about every night, more days off, and better catering. :)

When I get my 1,000 PIC, where do you suggest I go? Majors aren't hireing....UPS, FedEx are extremely competitive, etc etc. You're living in a dreamland if you think that all of us are living in a dreamland. We're not idiots. We realize these aren't career places. I'd be the first one out the door if I had a promise of a career like it used to be at a major. You seem to have all the answers.

Don't you get it? As long as there are "cheap" regionals, all of the mainline flying will get farmed out there. Can't you see that Express Carriers are now flying 70 and 90 seat jets with 1st class? At some point some moron will build a 120 seat RJ and you see people flying it for $50/hr.

How does that affect the majors? Simple -- Less flying for them
How would that affect the regionals? Simple -- More flying for them

What does that mean for you? Simple -- You wil be stuck at a regional making peanuts with no chance to leave.

You talk about a stepping stone. What you don't realize is that your attitude and others like you are making the regionals a stepping stone - just in the wrong direction.

Thank you spamman,
I couldn't have said it better myself.

Any idiot can get a license. They can even pay the $5 grand for a 737 type. Landing the dream job on the other hand takes a lot more than the piece of paper.

The majors are failing and pay scales are coming down across the board. Somewhere along the line the pilots of the industry need to stop the trend. The largest part of that effort is educating people like the one that started this thread.

I researched it myself, and consulted an PhD in English:

Irregardless is an "erroneous redundancy for regardless"

English lesson for the day complete.

That would be: consulted a PhD in English.
English lesson now complete.

Warning, Apamm, Josh
 

Hey Guys,

We are all on the same team. I don't like it any more than you. Back when I got my first job at the regionals I was the youngest in my class at 28 and had the lowest time with 3800 hours. It was a real job that they only gave to grown ups, and even then the pay was miserable. Today flying for the regionals is like working for McDonalds. They take young 20 year olds and pay them nothing. (At least McDonalds gives you a food discount.) Management has learned that it is better to hire young kids since most will not complain and don't need much to live on. You guys earn less than if you were privates in the Army. I blame some the advertisers on this forum. Flight Safeties Airline Academy offers zero to FO in 12 months. I saw another one called Lana something that offered financing and a "pay later" option. Student loans in colleges across the nation will cover much of the bill for training. Why would an airline pay any more? There is a constant flood of new pilots hitting the street every week.

Flight time and the value of flight experience had plunged. Back when I started if you had 1000 hours of piston multi PIC and sat in a Learjet once you were a hot prospect. The phone was ringing from UAL AA DAL UPS. These days you need 1000 of RJ PIC and a letter of recommendation from the president of the United States. Just a few years ago no one had jet time. Today anyone with 600 hours can be sitting in the right seat of a 50 seat jet. The time doesn't mean anything anymore. Who cares?

Josh is right. I was a professional pilot for almost 20 years. My resume includes over 12 different employers. I worked for regionals, national jet airlines, corporate, charter, medevac and of course CFI gigs. I have over 6400 hours of time. Most of that is in multi engine jets or turboprops. I couldn't convert to a major airline while young enough. Most of my peers couldn't do it either. Out of my graduating class of 30 from college only one is still flying.

The decline in our industry has been in the works for a long time. It is not a trend or a swing of the pendulum but the normal devolution of an industry that has seen its day. Of course there will always be flying but the pay will sink to the legal bottom and stay there until the day comes when the applications stop coming in.

There are thousands upon thousands of furloughed or unemployed pilots on the street and more are on the way. NWA has learned how to break the mechanics union and I am sure they are putting together a plan to do the same to the pilots if they put up a fight. Other airlines will learn from their example.

Honestly, I wish things were different. I wish we all could have good jobs that we enjoyed and paid well. Step back and take a look. It is not going to happen. Hoping that Mesa will raise its pay is like asking McDonalds to pay a fry cook 30K/year and offer a full benefits package. My advise is to get in, build your 1000 hours of PIC time have your fun. Then try for a job at the majors or perhaps corporate and if it doesnt work out pick a date that is the end and leave. Get a real job outside of aviation. The pay is much better and it isn't as bad as you might imagine.

SkyHigh

exactly...
 

EXACTLY Skyhigh

I don't know what the lure is anymore. Years ago things were obviously different. Now its just a joke. I was tempted to post a question to everyone...Why are there so many people that want to "fly for a living" when you know how crappy it is? Maybe they are blind and think that things will change for the better and go back to normal. ( 4yrs at regional (crap job) then major (big bucks)) But as I see it with eyes wide open - There basically will be no "major" to step up to eventually (or already). Airline management knows what they are doing, taking advantage of the large # of pilots out there. Jet time doesnt mean anything anymore. Its all about - are you willing to work for low pay and high abuse as a career. Apparrently this is in ASA's own interview questions - check it out on www.willflyforfood.com. Its like asking you if you are retarded right to you face!



Nothing in this industry makes sense anymore...

I've decided a while ago that the dream is just that.

.......
You talk about a stepping stone. What you don't realize is that your attitude and others like you are making the regionals a stepping stone - just in the wrong direction.[/QUOTE]

I think at AA Eagle, they call that "flowback"

low pay question...
 

www.willflyforfood.cc

the ASA question was/is - Would I fly for a career if it was always going to be low pay?


The person got hired...I imagine his answer was the one they were looking for...

-LA

EXACTLY!

20 is waaaaaay too young to get married, esp to put it under the strains of this business.

If she is the right girl, even if it is the wrong time, there is no rush. The 'right time' will come around and it will feel as right in 2 or 3 years as it does now.

Do yourself a favor and worry about how you are going to support the two of you financially before you get hitched. (LOL...on 18K/yr) Get your job/career situated first!

The Future,

My big hope now is that in 15 years or so when they are down to selling pilot jobs I hope I can afford to buy a left seat in a west coast 737. I have already started saving. Flying for the airlines is a hobby these days anyway and not a real job. The regionals like to hire 20 year old kids and old men who are already retired from a career in the military or police. The second group is clearly the way to go. They don't worry about pay and can enjoy the travel and health insurance benifits. That is the way to do it.

Skyline

Alright....my original point was to warn this kid off of the PFT route...that's what we're supposed to be doing. Now that he should realize that it(PFT) is gutting the industry, and that his lack of concern regarding wages makes him nothing more than a hack let's get back to explaining what a waste of money his options are. Then we can go back to determining what a waste of oxygen he'll be if he presses on:

Copied from another board---

slabrasca
Junior Member
http://forums.mesalounge.com/avatar....ine=1127915591 Registered: Sep 2005
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Posts: 1
Be very careful with RAA I am an RAA graduate. My question to you is this, what part of their program are you getting involved in? I went through their program from instrument to commercial and then got my type rating in the CRJ. Remember, they are just a flight school making lots of promises so they can keep their planes in the air. Once you sign a contract with them your sunk. No way out. My type rating at CAE cost me about $30,000.00. Any extra sessions you take beyond the 7 they give you are at $600.00 an hour. And you will probably not do it in 7. I just hate to see you get suckered into spending money you don't have to. Remember...they're not in business to get you a job, they're in business to make money.

Why spend all that money when at 500 hours you could be in the right seat of a 121 carrier without spending it. CHQ is asking pilots to take time off without pay because they have too many in the 145's right now. they have cancelled classes.

Why not go get your CFI and instruct somewhere. Tow banners, do scenic flights....anything...don't just throw money at RAA and hope to get a job that later you will have figured out you could have gotten anyway!

Just my opinion!

For a guy wanting "to do it RIGHT", you're quickly heading towards doing it "WRONG".

With all due respect, it's people like YOURSELF with this "I don't care about pay" attitude that is causing problems for regional pilots. YOU should CARE about pay. If you don't care NOW, when will you CARE???

With the money you're going to spend at RAA, buy a clue and become educated on the industry, and realize you need to change your attitude and start building your experience like everyone else. You can't wait another THREE years and use that time to become more experienced before moving onto the regionals? Talk about being impatient...

Part 135 experience should be a mandatory requirement for any pilot wishing to graduate up to the 121 world. And, yes, I flew single-engine 135 night cargo before becoming a 121 F/O. I'm twice you're age and care VERY much about the future of the business.

Rant over...

Peace

SF

Here's a link that pretty much sums up why this attitude is so deadly to the profession. When ads like this go mainstream it makes a sad statement about how far some people are willing to go "Just to make Captain".

http://tinyurl.com/b7qyh

My husband is a graduate of RAA. He was hired by expressjet with 600/200, which is a great perk. However, he also has over 100 K in student loans (a far cry from the $40,000 they first quoted him). This amount includes a type rating in a CRJ.

As for getting married, I am 23, he is 22, and we were married about 6 months ago, prior to when he got the job. He seemed to think that the airline looked at him being married as a positive sign and a signal of stability. If you want to get married, I'm sure you can make it work, as we are doing. As long as your fiance understands that you will probably not be around that much, especially in the beginning, and she is okay with that, then you can make a marriage work. As for planning the wedding, I would not recommend trying to do that while you are working for a regional. I go to school in Florida, so moving to a hub is not an option for me (and I plan on practicing law in Florida when I'm done.) I imagine it would be alot easier if I moved to one of the hubs, but its not impossible for my husband to commute.

Good luck with your fiance and your job hunt!

Warning, Overload!
 

:eek: Warning (no kidding!),

As a wife, business woman AND curious soul, I'm truly enjoying and appreciating learning about this industry (that my husband is about to enter) and posters like SkyHigh and others provide intelligent, mature and interesting posts educating the rest of us. Your bitter and immature posts don't do anyone any good. Spew your bitterness and hatred elsewhere. Why make these youngs guys feel even worse than everyone already knows they will in those first couple of years?? It just sucks to read posts like yours that are so full of bile and nastiness; if you think that these young guys illustrate what is "wrong with this industry", trust me; you don't add much appeal to it either. Ugh!