Piedmont vs. PSA
 

Hey guys,

I’m getting close to regional minimums and need to make a choice soon. I’ve done a lot of reading on both airlines. I’m in the PHL area so I’d like to be based there if possible. Of course piedmont seems like a no brainer, but from what I’ve read they seem to have a lot of issues.

The inefficient 4 on 2 off schedule at PDT is one of the downsides. How easy is it to get PHL at PSA? It seems like they have much better schedules there.

If given the choice between the two, what would you choose and why? Thanks!

What is your long term goal?

PHL is easy to get.

I’d eventually like to get on with a major. Preferably AA since they have a big PHL base as well. I’d just like a decent quality of life at the regionals in the meantime.

If you want to fly clapped out Eagle 145's force transferred to a carrier that is transitioning from props, then go PDT. If you want to fly for a carrier that voted concessions to secure new flying and airplanes at the expense of another ALPA carrier and the rest of the regional industry, then PSA.

Obviously, pick something in base to avoid commuting, but that's what you're going into.

“Decent quality of life” doesn’t exist at any of the AA WO’s judging by their contracts compared with others.

Piedmont: Where you will have an average of 11.5 days off over your career here. And get paid 75 hours to fly every month no matter how many days off you have.

Do your self a favor, don't come to PDT. I've got friends at PSA that have a better QOL than we do.

The funny part is every PSA pilot got a substantial pay raise when we all upgraded to CA after that TA.:D

Piedmont is a joke. Check back in ten years. If it still exists then, it might an ok airline. At the moment, it's the runt of the AA wholly-owned litter. Not the cute runt that makes up for it's size with a lot of personality. It's the mentally undeveloped, disfigured, half-stillborn runt that makes men wince, brings women to tears, and gives children nightmares for a few weeks.

lol sounds just like PSA

Your best choice in PHL is probably Republic, give them a look.

Republic. Pay and QOL.

The flow it’s close to 10 years for Piedmont and well over 10 for PSA. You’ll be underpaid compare to almost every other regional the whole time you’re at either.

At least y’all are getting more days off as you build seniority.

Yup go to Republic.

PSA's Union keeps giving the company concession after concession. Hell it was the Unions idea to let the company force senior FO's into upgrade, and also let the company send those upgrades to any base management feels like.

Right now all the wholly owneds are in a really bad spot, morale is the lowest I've ever seen, and it seems like we're all in a race to the bottom while the other regionals are taking steps to improve things.

Besides you'll be looking at an 8-10 year flow from PSA to AA which is awful.

Republic does look great, but from what I’m seeing, they aren’t even starting new classes until Nov/Dec 19. I really don’t want to wait almost a year for a class date.

Even waiting a year for a class date at Republic you will be actually flying an airplane before you will with Piedmonts training circus...

There is a lot of misinformation and half truths on this thread. As with many threads here on APC so take all of this for whatever you think it’s worth. I would encourage you to reach out to actual pilots flying at the prospective companies you’re interested in to get a good idea of exactly what life on reserve and on the line is like and what you can expect.

Wanting PHL, you have basically 3 options:
*Republic
*PSA
*Piedmont

Republic: Great contract and pay for a regional airline. A friend of mine is a recruiter for them and told me recently that because of their current wait for training, it will likely be spring - summer 2020 before anyone interested right now even touches the 175 out flying the line. That is a very long time to wait to start building experience and time.

PSA: PHL is somewhat junior on the FO side. You won’t have any issue getting it relatively quick. You will be on reserve for quite a while at PSA. Reserve here (and at any of the AA wholly-owneds) is not great. That being said PSA just passed some improvements to our reserve rules which will improve things. Once you’re a line-holder at PSA you can take advantage of our SAP (Schedule Adjustment Period). It allows you to drop down to a minimum of 65 hours of flying if you want to maximize your days off, pick up flying to maximize your credit, or swap and drop trips to get the days off you want/need. It offers unparalleled schedule flexibility. The processing times for requests tend to be slow now that we have over tripled in size since it was first rolled out, but I have personally never had any issues getting all the days I need off. The pay override is a gain for most of the pilots here (though there are some who would disagree with this). You will be forced to upgrade to Captain as soon as you have 1,000
SIC and you can be displaced out of base. This may change by the time you’re eligible etc but as of right now that’s where things sit.

Piedmont: I don’t know as much about Piedmont. Mostly what I’ve heard from talking to friends there or running into their pilots. I do know that they don’t have any real schedule flexibility and you can expect to only be off 11-12 days /month 75-85 hours. Not great. Piedmont was the wholly-owned with the quickest flow but I don’t know if that holds true now. It seems that time to flow ebbs and flows at the 3 AA regionals depending on when you were hired. Some people will flow in 5 years. Other are projected to be around 7-8 years.

I can really only speak about PSA from first-hand experience. I’ve been here a few years and overall it’s been okay (it’s a regional). I’ve worked at worse places and I’ve worked at better places. We are still growing and it is my understanding that PHL is going to continue to grow at a more rapid pace than our other bases. We begin swapping out CRJ200s for new CRJ900s this year.

That being said PSA is not in fact giving concessions as the poster above said. Of the 3 AA wholly-owned regionals we seem to enjoy the benefits of the best working relationship between ALPA and management. Our contract isn’t up until 2023 so until then I would expect small gains here and there. Classes are full and attrition is manageable at all 3 AA wholly-owneds though so management doesn’t see any real need to make significant enhancements to pay or the current flow agreements. Looking at the hiring data, if AA is your #1 career destination your best shot to get there is working for one of their wholly-owned regionals. And it PHL is your goal that really leaves you 2 options. If you have any specific questions about PSA (or any other regional) feel free to PM me and I will do my best to help.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents on Republic. I've been there since 2016. I'm a CA now. Upgrades are less than 2 years and rapidly dropping. My pay and QOL is very good (for a regional). I live in Delaware and drive 25 minutes to work. Management is investing heavily in our equipment and training department. We're building our own sims at our training center in Indianapolis. Yes, the newhire classes are full for the rest of the year which is , obviously, a huge drawback. This is because they are using their training capacity now to make new Captains. Next year they will probably focus again on new hires. It's not perfect and I don't drink the cool aid, but I've been happy here. Our current contract is amenable next year and we expect further improvements.

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As another YX guy, I second this.

The only draw back is that we're super staffed right now, and haven't acquired any additional flying lately, which means the airline is being very selective. While this won't be the case forever, as others have said, it is right now.

Hahaha we traded first officer seniority for a little bump in flow, gave up 1.25 pay for picking up trips, have new reserve rules that are so convoluted scheduling gets away with just about whatever they want since there's no oversight, you'll be senior Manned to Captain as soon as you're at 1,000 turbine forfeiting what's left of any fo bonuses, oh and when you're senior Manned they can send you to any base they want (hope you like Norfolk). Oh and the Union keeps signing agreements without letting the pilots see them in writing, and certainly doesn't let us vote on anything.

The only guys who haven't taken concessions at PSA are the senior captains, who benefit most from the small bump in flow. They got that at the expense of the junior pilots.

Wait for a class at Republic, and don't pay attention to the flow. If you can't find a major that will hire you before you hit the 8-10 year flow at PSA then you've got bigger issues.

As far as piedmont is concerned:
11-12 days off a month (does not change with seniority)
no schedule flexibility, you'll end up working 4 on 2 off all month, with maybe 3 days off between occasionally.
you'll have a carry over trip from the month prior, every month, that makes you work 8/9 days or 6 day stretches
if you bid a 14 day off line with the first five days off of the month, expect to have flying added to the first five days to bring your line down to 11 days off.
reserve is 1.5 hour call out, that's it.
min pay trips (16 hours each trip, there isnt one trip that is over 18 hours of credit in March) or 75 hours a month.
flow has slowed. 775 pilots on the seniority list and we flow around number 85. Without outside attrition that's 9.5 years, throwing in some attrition maybe 7.5-8 years. this isn't going to change.
you wont fly long legs, so you cant build time quickly here to get the hours to upgrade.
training backlog is 6+ months. Prob will decrease because we stopped growing.
since we stopped growing, so the flow isn't gonna increase anytime soon
manual pay corrections. anytime you have a cancelled flight, or a schedule change, you have to manually go in and send in an adjustment form to payroll for them to fix it. you're lucky if they actually do. Payroll still works in the stone age, so you have to watch your pay report like a hawk to properly get paid.

the upside? I enjoy the majority of the people I fly with here. the people on the line are great. theres a lot of potential, theres been a lot of potential for years, but the progress has been slow to catch up. When I first started we were operating like it was the 80's, now were operating like it's the late 90's (with planes that rolled off the assembly line in the late 90's lol)

I'd stay away from here. I talk to guys at PSA and at least they're getting more days off than we are. its a better QOL over there. Republic guys....yea, they got it way better than either one of us do.

It's all temporary, chose what is right for you, but I can say the moral is low as we continue to bend over for the company and get the occasional "thanks" from management.

People who say "it's a Regional, it is supposed to suck" are idiots. I am at Republic and it does not suck at all. I can credit over 100 hours and still have 15 days off in a month. I get block or better, pay protection, no junior manning, 4 sets of uniforms every year, etc.

Do not enable these bottom feeder Regioanls (by bottom feeder, I mean their pay and work rules not the pilots themselves who are usually great when I have been on their aircraft) by continueing to apply to places where they have horrible work rules and pay. The only way it is going to change is if pilots stop applying there.

Now I realize some pilots have no choice or would go to an unfavorable Regional to avoid commuting, which is perfectly acceptable. But what gets me are people who do little research and pick the path which is easiest. i.e. which ever recruiter got to them first in flight training.

My point is that working for a Regional does not have to suck and ruin your life/make you hate flying. Put a lot of research in and try to go to a Regional that has the best pay/QOL where you don't have to commute, or has the best commute.

Spot on, well said.

Replies bolded above.

For the love of god don't come to Piedmont

I agree with this. The thing with the WO is that the flow is a huge attractor despite comparatively sub par pay and work rules. AA and management know this and take full advantage of it. It is what it is. I don’t come on here to paint pictures of, “rainbows and sunshine” but I wouldn’t necessarily steer someone away from an AA WO if it does indeed seem like the right fit for them just to potentially better myself or PSA ALPA’s negotiating position. That is very disingenuous and it makes those who do it seem less credible.

While I agree with most of what you say, I don’t think all of it is people not doing their homework. Some of it certainly is, but the long wait times at the top regionals are certainly a factor also.

Any SE piston time over 1500 hours doesn’t do anything special for your resume. I think the idea of staying in your current gig for another 6-12 months waiting on a class date is a non starter for most people. A better idea is going to one of the lesser regionals, and getting some 121 experience.

If after 6 months to a year, you are misera, then put in at one of the top regionals. After proving you can pass a 121 training program, and a few hundred hours on the line, your app will go right to the top of the stack when they begin classes again.

I wouldn’t give up on a regional for another regional though. In reality gaining seniority over everything should be top priority in an unstable economy.

But, that being said any decision made in this industry is a gamble.

Piedmont shouldn't even be an option these days.

I drive to work at PDT. 4 on 2 off, at 75 hours credit is life.
Just a few years ago the flow time was realistically attractive, and premium pay made up for the schedules. Those things won't be here for you now.

Republic sounds like the best bet in PHL today. Unless having a 9.5 year flow date "in your back pocket" is something you really think you'll need.

PSA is a bit better schedule wise thanks to SAP, but otherwise yeah you can do better than the flow. I've got 3-4 years to flow and I'm looking to jump ship. With 9-10 years I wouldn't have even interviewed.

Unless AA is your absolute must have for a job and/or unless you’re less than 2 years from flowing, there aren’t many reasons to be at an AA WO. That being said those hired 2014-2015 at the AA WOs will likely end up hitting a pretty good sweet spot career-wise. I don’t know that I can say the same for those being hired now.

This! I work at 9E. I bid for weekends off and commutability, and I don't pick up anything. I usually credit 85 hours at the end of the month with a minimum of 15 days off, and I get the days off that I want. If I wanted to work weekends, then I could probably get 17 days off easily.

The regional scale sucks, and my company isn't perfect. I really do enjoy my job, though, and I'm really happy with my QOL.

My point exactly, those that are here now and the top half of the company have the golden handcuffs. For a new hire though the wholly owneds should be far from the first choice.

Unless their top choice is AA. Then the wait to flow program is their best bet...

With hardly any lines in PHL you can even say sap is an option for this person. By the time they get to sap it’ll be time to go to the left seat

All the PSA pilots I see sitting ready reserve in philly and not having touched an airplane in weeks, always look like they’re having a blast.

That’s every ready reserve at every semi-staffed airline.

Not all regionals are created equal. Many have better reserve rules in general, most with better ready reserve rules. Some don't even have ready reserve...

How many months are you usually on RR? At mine that job tends to go to the FO that finishes training halfway through the month. You might have two months of it max. Not the end of the world.

No ready reserve at Piedmont. Only short call (an hour and a half).