Since we're on the subject of pay comparisons and the question of what is or is not good money, I'll post my recent experience.....

I usually do most of my own home mx and improvements. Occationally I call a professional when the project is beyond my knowledge/experience level or there is risk of bodily injury (can't lose that medical). Such was the case recently when I called an electrician to install 2 new 240v circuits for my shop. Converted to a daily rate, his fee was DOUBLE what I earn for a day's work with the military reserve, and TRIPLE what I earn for a day as an AAI FO.

To boot, he was a customer at the bank where my wife works and did the work on his own time at a discounted rate. I had two quotes prior to the work being done from other companies at full price and, had I contracted with them, the bill would have been FOUR TIMES my daily FO pay (again, converted to a daily rate).

Take from that what you will.

I agree, I also agree that I think we as pilots SHOULD make more BUT....If you can't be happy on Whatever it is that you make there are likely some other problems in your life / relationship. I think to many people REGARDLESS of profession think they should live in a 10,000 sq ft house and drive a Bentley.....maybe that is why there are a record amount of foreclosures too.

I guess what I am saying is that a strong man (person....can't forget the ladies :) ) Will find a way to provide for their family, and yes the pilot profession EVEN with the low pay of the regionals is well above the median pay for the U.S. ...For those of you that think not, maybe you should ask someone you work with to show you how to use the search function on your computer.
This doesn't mean that the compensation is where I or many of us think it should be, Just that maybe some people should learn to conserve a little until we can bring some of the contracts back up to what they should be.

Oh and happy Cinco de Mayo to all. I hope your hotel had specials on Tequilla tooo since we are all near poverty :D

Pay?
 

Pay should be the last thing that pilots today should be thinking about. Just remember, "HELLO"...... you are getting PAID to fly a plane. The opportunity to fly is reward enough.

Having a family and flying is like a married monk. Doesnt work out so good. I found a way to support my family. I left aviation and it took a lot of personal fortitude to do it.

The proper attitude today is to go into flying with the knowlege that you will be poor, you will be laid off many times, you will live a loner life. And, Hey, if things turn out for the better then good for you.


SkyHigh

I miss flying
 

Man I miss flying but I don't miss being gone all the time, the humiliating wages and treatment by management, and bleak future.

It is great to be home and to finally be making a Grown Up real wage. It feels good to be able to hold my head up when amongst peers at social gatherings. It is greatly satisfying to be able to accomplish goals at my own pace and not have to rely on outside forces to determine my advancement.

I like being able to look at a new car and think "hey one day I could own one too". It pleases me that I am able to plan family events with others and actually be there as well. I am proud to be able to provide adequately for my wife and children. It warms my heart to think that my kids have a good home, good school to go to and that they will most likely we will never be forced to leave our home town again.

I miss flying and hopefully will find a way back one day but there is no better aviation career killer than success in another line of work. It makes you realise how difficult it is to be a pilot and how much you really do sacrifice in the process.

SkyHigh

Sky,
If you really want to depress yourself, go to www.flyertalk.com, then to the AAdvantage forum, then to the thread about AA pilots demanding a 30.5% payraise. Interesting to see how many people think pilots are greedy, yet they defend management bonuses. I almost had a stroke reading that stuff the other day.

Your "challenge" was basically to find a decent home for less than 450K in a safe neighborhood. I took it to an extreme and found one for 1/3.

No, there is no country club membership included and you might have to cut your own lawn. Seriously, do you recognize that your are coming off as a little bit superior? Do you really believe that you are so much more important than the rest of society? Let them eat cake, right?

And you wonder why "civilians" don't side with us during the public contract battles...

this thread is never going to end

I used to think that you were overly pessimistic, but after reading the posts from all these losers who make 20k and live in their parents' basements, I'm not so sure. These 20-something year-old children have no idea what is required to raise a family in a good area. They think 50k is a lot of money, and that the pilots who think that they rate more are elitist snobs. I wonder whether they notice that the only people who agree with them on these boards are fellow childless hobbyists in their early to mid-twenties. Why should they listen to all the guys with families who have been flying for decades? :mad:

You have some balls talking like that. You start at the bottom and work your way up. 20 something is a bad spot to be at starting at the bottom? What are you smoking? I know exactly what it takes to raise a family in a good area which is exactly why I'm not starting one. Its those that have a wife and kids that might need to think twice and even then it's their choice and I know several who are very happy doing it. Why shouldn't I listen to someone who has a family and been flying for decades? I do. They're proud of me and tell me to keep it up. They tell me they were CFI's and worked the ladder just like I'm doing. I, as well as others, don't listen to someone of the likes of you because frankly you speak like the village idiot. Go stand on a street corner holding a sign saying the world's ending.

I'm a 20 something guy who was a CFI and I've never wanted to do anything else. You speak like we all have a family with 6 kids and are neglecting them which is completely false. Do you even know what 2nd Lt. pay is? I make as much as they do. Last year I actually made more than they did. I had about 30 of them as students and compared pay. Going to go call them losers? Best thing you could do is shut your mouth. I can't believe a military pilot has the audacity to make statements like that.

Sky, You talk about all the doom and gloom, but please correct me if I'm wrong, you never flew for a Major carrier right? Of course your life would suck if you entire career was at a regional (even horizon). Its really hard to take all of your experiences into account when you haven't been with a Major.

Don't forget he's now debating on getting back in with a LCC

Im 26, and I dont think 50k is good, so try not to generalize too much on here:rolleyes:

Jobs
 

I was at Horizon Air and then at National Airlines as a 757 FO. You are correct I never was at a major. If I was then perhaps I would be here to spread the blessings of an airline career. It does not make me a hypocrite. I am sure that if you were to ask a super ball winner what they thought of gambling they would tell you that it was a great choice.

As far as my thoughts about going to an LCC. Why not? Plenty of pilots are retired military and therefore don't really need the money. It makes for a fun retirement/hobby job. I am reaching a point in my business and life where I could consider the same thing. In a few years my kids will be older and I most likely will have a secure source of passive income.

My career perspectives are changing. So long as I don't need the money and they are giving jobs away like candy then it would be fun for a year of two. It is my position that in the future most any airline job will be a snap to get. The pay will be an insult but why would I care? Hopefully they offer easier lines and faster upgrades in place of compensation.


In the future there will be two kinds of pilots. Impoverished youthful aviation monks and fat older hobby/retired guys.


SkyHigh

50k
 

50K is not a lot of money anymore. When my generation started out we all left flight school with expectations of earning 250K by now. To some that might mean we were greedy and deluded. The current generation thinks that 50K is a lot of money.

Most of my peers fell way short of our goals. My question is where do you guys think you will end up with such low expectations?


You guys are all doomed. The next wave will come prepared to buy their jobs.


Skyhigh

thats the advantage of paying someone poverty wages for years, when they do upgrade and break the 50grand barrier they will think they won the lotto.

It's all relative. Depending on where and how you live $50k will make a comfortable living. My mom has raised three children, bought a nice home and more on about 70% of that. We don't take expensive vacations or fancy cars and that's fine.

Does that mean I'm satisified at 50k? No, but it's a start, and a hell of a lot better than I'm doing right now.

Where do you live???????????????????? three children on 50k a year sounds like no picnic

Midwest my friend. St. Louis area to be exact. Cost of living around here is nice and low. Like I said, we don't have a ton of nice things but it pays the bills and then some.

I'm amazed when traveling to see how much more things cost on the East Coast or California. Take homes for example. A nice, 3 to 4 bedroom home in a good school district in the area is rarely above $250k around here. Go out to the west coast and that house could cost $800k or more.

try over a Million for a nice new 4-bedroom house in a nice area, in Jersey I dont understand what all these people do for a living, where they can afford these types of houses not to mention the BMW's that come with em............very depressing

Sign on the dotted line Mr Saab. Reposessions and foreclosures are on the rise for a reason. Bimmers and huge houses are neat, but you don't need them. There are people in those houses that are living paycheck to paycheck just like a first year FO. The sad difference is that they're probably making a lot more money.

Unfortunately, the Atlanta area fills that bill. Greater ATL area-pop. 5,000,000. We are up to out A$$ in transient yankees....

haha those darn transient yankees!

Ya also need to think about retirement. So you can buy a house on 50k in stl, do ya plan on funding your retirement in your late 40/50s without the benefit of your money compounding? 50k is chump change. Save for retirement and you will be paycheck to paycheck for the rest of your life.
Go check out some retirement calculators and see what you need to contribute to live the same type of lifestyle until you die. You will be surprised.

I was only referring the young posters who have no idea what it takes to raise a family in most cities. More specifically, the ones who seem to be willing to work for peanuts just so they can fly. I'm glad to see that not all the young guys think 50k is a reasonable wage to pay an airline pilot who has a college education, 100k in aviation training, and is responsible for the safety of hundreds of lives every flight. :)

http://flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=689429

Here is a more specific link. This just shows you what the common trash out there thinks of the profession. These tards don't understand that a 30% raise isn't very good when it's following a 50% pay cut.

New Generation
 

The current post 911 generation of pilots are braced to work for nothing. The future will be even lower wages as these guys join the union and start to delute the ranks.

Anyone left here who thinks there will be increased wages? Good luck.

SkyHigh

20 Years
 

When I was 20 years old I would have jumped at the chance to fly for a regional. However times were very different, I had to work for years as a CFI then air taxi in several states for many years more before I was competitive for a regional. When I did finally get on at a regional I was the lowest time guy in class with 3800 hours total and 1400 multi-engine.

The sacrifices I made along the way are what solidified my expectations. If I was a 20 year old 300 hour new hire at a regional I would have hardly invested anything. Easy come easy go I guess. Who cares about anything when the job has no value to the people who hired on with nothing?

The job is meaningless to someone who acquired easy success at such a young age. Why expect to get paid too?


I sacrifised a lot and expect a lot.

SkyHigh

These statements are consistent with my local observations. I know a bunch of pilots who went to the regionals in the last few years, and the only reason they did so was they thought a lottery strike of rapid advancement will kick in for them somehow and get them on with FedEx and Delta.

I'm a little depressed about it since all through school I looked up to this career and I no longer really believe it's worth it. There is a long hard road involved. At least I have a back up plan in case the aerospace industry tanks. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

wow those people are even more hot than us. Unfortunately, that thread reflects the attitude of the general public when it comes to pilot salaries and salaries in general. Alot of it is just envy that someone else gets more than "moi". But when 50% of the population makes less than 50K and our level of economic education is so terrible, it's not surprising. And it doesn't help one's cause to call them "common trash". Remember the absence of that trash in the seats of airplanes is why pay was cut in the first place. Public opinion plays a huge role in labor disputes. The government ultimately settles the bitter disputes and government is made of politicians who read polls assiduously.

Do the math: $100,000 a year is $8333.33 a month.

Payments on a $300,000 loan might be as high as $2200 a month (PITI)

You think someone could survive on the remaining $6100 per month? <sarcasm should be obvious>


I've almost never made over $100,000 a year in my life and will make significantly less than that now. Wife does not work. I live in a >3000sq foot house in a very nice neighborhood. 4 kids; college, Army, High School. I drive a paid off lexus.

Not trying to brag but according to some of you guys, I'm a hillbillie in a trailer park. I think you need to rethink your budgets.

True that. I grew up working on a farm since I was 9yrs old for my dad. We never made alot but they've put two kids through college where one is a pilot and the other a soon to be VP of IBM. They own a 2300sq home in the center of our town. My dad has a 22' fishing boat and a bayhome waterfront to park it under. Fishes 2-3 times a week. Whole family has traveled the world. Average yearly income has never been over $100k. We worked hard, didn't spend when we didn't have to, and invested what we could save, paid for our home in cash, don't owe anyone anything. It's called using your head. Not making payments on something now adds up a hella lot in 10yrs. A little belt tightning in the beginning makes life much easier once the ball is rolling. Without all these monthly payments(rent, cable, electricity ect.) I have just as much spending money as my friends who are engineers ect.

I admire the way your family does things, toiletduck. The only thing I can think of that our family owed money for was a house. We never owned a new car or bought a big screen TV. We lived rather simply with little to no debt. Parents only have one credit card between the two of them and almost never use it except for emergencies or an occasional dinner. I learned to appreciate the value of money through living simply. I don't have a single credit card, no cable TV, and a micro electric bill ($11 a month). Oddly enough, I enjoy a greater financial freedom than my friends who make six figures a year.

On another note, I have a tremendous amount of respect for farmers. Without their hardwork, we all starve! You have some valuable survival skills to resort to if money ever becomes worthless. You will not go hungry. :)

Sky failed in aviation because of some bad choices.

Feel free to take career advice from him...based on his track record.

He'd be a Capt at SWA by now....if he'd only applied.

TD, I couldn't agree with you more. 1Seat, the same applies to you. Skyhigh, I've said it before. You preach the fast track (PFT and whatnot) but your dream FAILED because you bailed on Horizon and the hope of a fast track with National.

I came from nothing. My mom raised three kids single, and when dad was kicked out she had a job paying less than min. wage by the time health insurance was deducted. She works two jobs at 50 because she wants more for us. I've worked my ass off since I was 14. Nothing comes easy in life and I wouldn't want it any other way.

Don't knock trailers. Mine's twice the size of any of my buddy's apartments, the cost is nearly half as much. :)

Hey
 

I didn't apply because I didn't want the job. What is so hard to understand about not wanting a Baltimore base and 9 legs a day?

SkyHigh

Prepared
 

Sounds like out of all of us you are the best prepared for life as an impoverished pilot.

By the way I also have lived in trailers, truck canopies, garages and the like. I never was to happy about it though.


Aim Higher.

SkyHigh

Past
 

The thing I keep getting stuck on is that most of you are quoting events that happened in the PAST. Today and tomorrow especially 50K means nothing. Your parents might have been able to raise 20 kids on what seems like pocket change now but what we are talking about is the FUTURE.

Even you single-engine ">100K". I am sure that you bought your house, car and everything else back when it was much cheaper. Of course you were able to make it work on less. The key word here is inflation. If I were to use your logic I could say that my parents bought a new house in a suburb in LA in 1970 for $23,500 and only paid $223 a month in payments. Why can't people today make in on $6,000 per year? Well they must be wasting money. :rolleyes:

SkyHigh

The thing is, you'd be commuting down to OAK from SEA now and not doing 9 legs a day. And you'd be halfway to holding captain there.:(

Even so
 

Even so. We all have dreams in life and never for one second did I ever think that SWA would be a good place for me. I also have never been interested in long haul international flying either. 9 legs per day or one 12 hours leg? I am in the middle. There isn't enough money in the world that would make those jobs sound interesting or fun at all.

SkyHigh

then why don't you go work at wall mart and give up flying. Pilots fly because they love it, not for the money. That is when you have a carer and not a job.