121 washout: "Hi, my name is Joe Blow, I just washed out of a 121 training program, but boy I sure learned a lot. You wanna hire me?"

Recruiter: "Yeah, we'll get back to you on that."



Much, much harder to get the 2nd shot than the first I'd wager.

"Sim instructors havent been used to low timers and needed to approach new hires different."

How should the approach be different?

The point that needs to keep hitting home is getting through ground school and the sim at 300 hours is one thing. But putting that guy on the line is something else. A 3000 hour guy "might" have weaseled his way through the system and bring no more to the cockpit than a 300 hour guy. The one thing that's for sure, though, is the 300 hour guy HAS no practical experience to fall back on.

I don't think it's right to say that just cause a guy can get through the sim he's qualified to be an jet airline F/O. Training and real life are two very different animals and experience/background are what gives the higher time guy the edge.

You can go on to say "the airlines WILL fill these seats one way or another". I agree with that. But to say it's a good idea to accept it without question or, "just shut up about it", pays a disservice to addressing a real problem.

why not? these are all 121 training programs that have been approved by the FAA. All of these training programs are closely monitored and the sim instructors know that their signature goes on their students paperwork, and I dont think any of those guys would just pencil whip a student through. I believe if anyone gets through sim training, then theyre qualified for that position. decision making and operations type aspects of the flying not included of course.

Because its a sim, and just that, it "SIMULATES" the airplane, I guarantee you that every day situations arise that were never discussed in ground school, or during one of your 10 sim sessions..................

If the washout rate gets much higher than about 5-10% the FAA starts taking a keen interest in the airlines training department. That is the main reason to make sure most people pass.

Glad to see how this topic isn't dead! ;-)

The commercial pilots license was not created to sign a person off to go and fly a 50 seat jet at 250 hours. I believe that anybody can be trained in the simulator to fly any aircraft, but operating that aircraft on the line in revenue service is a different animal with a different set of concerns. The real world tends to come up with some pretty strange things to throw at you in the air and it is these times when falling back on actual operating experience will help to keep you from bending an airplane. Don't get me wrong, even with thousands of hours under your belt, you still stand a chance of something going haywire and we all need to keep on our toes and learn every day, but the odds of a successful outcome favor the experience over the inexperience.

Airline captains are not paid to be instructors, and having a person in the right seat who has a solid background and established skill set is important while operating in the system with 10, 20 or 50+ people behind you. I am sure that there are exceptional 250 hour pilots out there, but the odds are not in their favor and excpetions don't make rules. Obviously low time pilots can be trained to operate these aircraft to an established degree of safety, but I do agree with the statement that simply because a person can fly a sim in training, it does not instantly make him a super F/O. There is more involved than just moving the yoke around!

VT

Or in the case of these LTPs "Not moving the yoke around!":eek:

but passing sim training makes you a qualified FO. that means youre qualified to takeoff climb, cruise, descend, approach, and land that airplane, and you know what to do if certain emergencies arise.

doubt it makes you a good or bad fo... but youre a qualified fo

Washout
 

:rolleyes: What should the next step be after a 121 washout? Should I go to all ATP and go through their CRJ program, is it worth it? Would it help getting back in?

I probably wouldn't do the CRJ program unless you can't get any other job offers. In your case it might help a little, but only if your cash supply is unlimited.

I'm assuming you failed sim. If you failed groundschool it will be tougher for you because groundschool usually requires only a lot of effort, not skill or experience.

In the current hiring environment I suspect that you will be able to get back on the horse fairly quickly. A few airlines might flat-out reject you based on a wash-out (Eagle used to have that policy, but they are desperate now), but most would see you as someone who has more experience with 121 training than a CFI on the street. You at least know the hurdles involved, and were not scared away from trying again. Most CFI's have no idea what they're getting themselves into.

You need to honestly analyze your performance and figure out what you did wrong, and be able to articulate how you are prepared to correct the problem the second time around. If you honestly got sick or had major family problems, that would be a legit excuse (three guys in my first airline class got divorce papers during training, one of them actually still graduated by some miracle.)

Also get some significant instrument flying practice (probably in a SIM). You know what you were weak on, but having instruments down to the point where they are second-nature frees up some mental horsepower for other tasks (such as exploding engines at the MAP).

The good news is that once you qualify at a 121 carrier and get some time under your belt, this incident will be less significant to your long-term career prospects. As long as it's a one-time thing, most future employers will write it off to inexperience since it was your first 121 event. Good Luck!