Rejected by Envoy and Mesa
 

Background.. 1470 hours, clean FAA record, no criminal history, no DUI or anything. I have a 4 year degree with honors from a good university. I’m in my mid 20s. I’ve checked and rechecked my application. Worst thing is that I had a string of bad luck with driving in the last 18 months. I got pulled over 3 times, twice for speeding 10% over the limit (both times they were deferred and dropped from my driving record after 90 days.) I also got nailed during those same traffic stops for having a headlight out and license plates expired. I know, I messed up on these stupid little things but learned from it.

I interviewed with Envoy, showed up prepared with all paperwork and thoroughly studied. Interview went great, was told I was well prepared and did a good job. But 9 days later I got an email saying “we’re sorry, we can’t consider you at this time, apply again in 6 months.

So I applied to Mesa, they called me and I got a phone screen an hour later. It went fine. But then I get the same rejection email 30 minutes later.

I know how to interview because I went through many while trying to get a job out of college and I received offers. I’ve always shown up prepared and well dressed, shoes shined, paperwork in order.

What gives? Im prepared to bring at least 5 if not 10 recommendation letters to my next interview. I’m baffled especially in this hiring environment. Nervous to keep interviewing if this is going to keep happening, possibly closing more doors!

Under the circumstances you may be wise to stop interviewing until you analyze what's going on.

1) Pull ALL of your government records to make sure there's no adverse info mistakenly included in your file. NDR, FBI record, ENTIRE FAA record. You'll need FOIA for the last two, and that will take time, likely weeks or more. Also log into the new Pilot Record Database, but keep in mind that is in Beta mode and may not have complete info (mine does not).

2) Review ALL of your personal documents, look for errors, typos, logbook math, etc. Especially look for anything which might appear fraudulent or intentionally misleading. In this climate they should give you an opportunity to discuss an error, but if they think you're lying intentionally they'll just wash their hands.

3) The mesa thing is strange, for them to reject you that quickly. They wouldn't have had time to pull any federal records (I doubt they'd waste the effort BEFORE an interview) , so that sounds like it had to be something you gave them. Leads to number 4.

4) References. My suspicion is that this is where your problem is... mesa could in fact have made some phone calls in 30 minutes. Coming from entry-level, fewer is better, but you need 2-3. Your entry-level problem is that most of your references are not pilots, and likely not airline pilots. So you never know what they might say, even well-intentioned, that might go against the grain. With regionals you just need 2-3, more is not better but more IS riskier for you. Trim the fat there. When the time comes for majors more references IS better but only if they are pilots from that major (ideally) or another major (they'll want employee numbers to prove it).

The problem is more likely to be your past employment references, vice personal references. The GA/Flight school world is frankly a lot like Junior High School... lots of inter-personal drama. Think carefully about your history with your references. If you have ANY doubts or less-than-solid relationships there, try to find a different reference from the same employer, someone you can trust for sure. It can even be someone who no longer works there, as long as they were in a supervisory position when you were there.

For previous non-flying jobs, if you can direct them to HR that would be best. Nothing a non-aviation boss is going to say will make a positive impact, but they can sure have a negative impact if so inclined for some reason.

Also... you could have a girlfriend make "reference calls" to all of your references and previous employer contacts, identifying herself as an airline HR person. I know a guy who did this, and he found the problem (from where he least expected it).

Also, carefully check the basics, such as spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc., on your resume and application.

Simple typos on documents you are putting forward about yourself say a lot to recruiters about your attention to detail and what habits you will bring to their company. If you don’t care enough about the documents you’re giving them, they will generally assume you’re not going to care about their airline or the job.

Also check employment dates. Make sure there are no unexplained gaps there. All your time since high school should be accounted for between school and work.

Otherwise, above advice is sound. The driving stuff doesn’t sound like it should be too much of an issue, as most of it is not related to a moving violation.

Although some might consider it a bit much at the regional level, you may want to have a professional service review your application and resume. It could be that extra little bit that gets your foot in the door.

Whatever you do, don’t give up if this is what you want to pursue. Keep applying and moving forward, and reapply at the six-month mark or whenever they say you can.

Yeah this really seems like an odd situation, especially the Mesa part. This isn't meant to be a knock against them, but often when people cant get hired elsewhere they go to Mesa, as they seem to offer less resistance to some background issues. Also the fact that it happened so quickly, really is strange. I wish I had something more to offer but wish you the best of luck.

bro
why are u saying you have had bad luck with driving in one sentence then saying these tickets were dropped! when asked about your driving record YOU SAY it is clean period! do you think you are the only young guy with a lead foot

There could be something else but to me this part is pretty big. Speeding tickets aren’t really that big of deal, but 3 in 18 months could be a deal breaker. The main problem though, is that it sounds like you had expired plates each of the 3 times. Then you claim you learned from it. Learning from it is doing it once and then never again. Or at least not for another few years. Repeating the same thing 2 more times in less than 18 months is not learning from your mistakes.

I think you’re right. I definitely own up to that fact.

they have people with way worse background on mesa...there is more than the speed tickets

I went through my application (AirlineApp) and for the question that asked “Are you eligible for an ATP or rATP per 61.159 or 61.160” I answered “no” because I don’t have 1500 hours yet, maybe that hit them the wrong way and I was supposed to say I am eligible? You’d think they would have asked that though to clarify

I would contact Raven Careers. They specialize in these kind of things and can give you guidance and help give you some answers for what could be going on.

And just a follow-up, AirlineApps is kind of a pain to fill out if you aren’t familiar. Many pilots get professional help with their applications, even for regionals.

You may be on to something with that thought. If everything is as you say, I'm thinking there must be an automatic disqualifier that is triggering the TBNT responses. Do you have a First Class Medical and a valid US Passport? There are certain questions that if you answer "No" to, it will be an automatic rejection, regardless of how well you think you interviewed.

Also, if you have a social media presence at all, spend some time cleaning it up. Anything they can find is fair game - including years old social media posts, etc.

That can't be it.If it was, they wouldn't have interviewed you.

They know you don't have 1500 hours.

They interview people with less than 1500 hours all the time, and give them a class date when they get there.

Envoy just maybe, but I seriously doubt that mesa even bothers. If they were going to do anything in the 30 minutes after an interview it would be SIDA (but you'd have filled out the forms if that was the case).

But very valid point for the majors especially.

Well I know that, I’m just saying by checking No in that box it may have looked like I got violated or something criminal made me unable to meet the “good moral character” requirement, that would make someone ineligible for the ATP or rATP

In a sense I’m not eligible because I don’t have 1500 just yet, but I will be eligible. Just wasn’t sure what the question was really asking.

Thing is, when you check Yes it brings up a list of hour requirements. 1500 for the unrestricted, 1250 with an aviation degree, 750 for military, etc.

Still don’t know and I would think someone would have clarified that

Do you have any checkride failures? If so, how many?

One. That’s it, just my PPL one time

That's the thing. In this climate they would have asked to clarify almost anything.

SIDA disqualifying crimes or a very adverse reference check are about the only things I can think of where the likes of mesa would just pass on you with no questions asked. I know as fact of one guy who was told they couldn't hire him with his drug conviction but they'd hold a class date for him if he could it expunged quickly enough (he did, and is now a legacy CA).

Envoy is quite a bit more selective due to flow, in the old days I would say expect to fail an Envoy (Eagle) interview and be pleasantly surprised if get beyond a CJO. They had enough time do some research so that could have been anything, including social media, that easy catch you fumbled in the HS state finals, how you part your hair (them dallas boys are funny that way...)

It couldn’t be a disqualifying crime (I have none) because Envoy ran the background and said I’m eligible to apply in 6 months.

Mesa is weird though. No explanation for that unless their HR just doesn’t have it together.

I’m thinking social media as well. Anything else they could have just asked especially Mesa I don’t think we turn down well qualified candidates for no reason. I post political things all the time but every few weeks go back and delete anything that could even potentially offend someone. Plus I keep it locked down.

Actually... that is something you need to check yes to, as I found out when I didn’t get through the filters somewhere.

I was a referral so the recruiter did call and ask, but that question is really badly written. It’s more... “will you”. Dumb, but that’s how I leaned the answer to that.

I highly doubt that would have an effect on the hiring decision though.

Call and ask them why?

Most companies won't tell you because they won't want to establish a pattern of having to say why and risking a lawsuit. That said, if you aren't *eligible* for an R-ATP they won't be able to hire you, so I think that answer is a big factor in the OP's problems. Could possibly send a messaging noting that was in error and see if that changes their minds.

That's not it. If it was they would just tell him he needs five more hours.

Could also be Envoy sincerely wants him to try again in six months, and somebody at mesa just accidentally hit the "TBNT" button instead of the "CJO" button. That would be so mesa.

Might call mesa and ask what you can do improve your application for next time?

Envoy is getting more selective because of the flow and I believe it’s nothing about your background checks because i think they don’t get too deep into it before you pass the interview and get the CJO from the captains board.
Mesa is starting to “act like being selective” due to it’s reputation of literally hiring anyone anywhere at anytime. You’re not the first one i see that has been rejected by Mesa recently. I know people who got rejected by Mesa in the last 4 or 5 months and got hired by Republic, Expressjet and Skywest.
So i would say that you’re just unlucky because the first 2 you picked are either being or acting like being selective these days. So there’s absolutely no reason to freak out about it. Just check your app for any mistakes and give other regionals a try.

Just to put some things in perspective.

When I was hired at envoy back in 2016 I got a call from recruiting a week or so after interview after PRIA came back.

Previous employer had some really vindictive things to say, they asked me to clarify and they were all good with the clarification and was sent a CJO about an hour later.

So it’s not like they don’t give someone an opportunity to explain something odd or that doesn’t make sense to them. Ie in my case great references for years either side of one s*itty one.

Rejected by Mesa ?
This world is truly coming to an end

I don’t know you so I don’t take this as a jab, but maybe you’re presenting yourself improperly. Sometimes in HR portions they’ll ask questions about your credentials and if you toe that line between confidence and arrogance they’ll send the TBNT email. Have to remember they’re also looking for guys they can see themselves spending 4 days with. Just spitballing here since things seem relatively in order for you.

I’ve conducted my fair share of phone interviews, not as applicant but as interviewer prior to inviting them for a face to face.
Now ok this was for CFI positions but same principle applies.
You can tell the difference between somebody who is nervous and eager to answer and somebody who is not listening or just simply rude as they interrupt you.
Or great credentials and everything is whine whine whine.
If they ask you a TMAAT question and you go off on a tangent HR is not likely to sit there and let you know how they really feel.
Once you’re done with your conspiracy theories they’ll nod and say thank you let’s move on shall we?
Meanwhile you’re sitting there thinking you did A-OK.
Im obviously partially joking here but that’s kinda how it goes.
I’m not going to sit there and argue with an applicant as to why I think they’re wrong.
I’m just making a note that they do t know a particular subject very well.
During a little break I’d walk downstairs and ask the ladies behind the front desk about their first impression and their opinion weighed really heavily. They pretty much had a veto.
You come in as a potential coworker and give them an attitude as if you’re Gods gift to aviation.
Now most of the time the applicant wasn’t really doing well independently of getting the thumbs down from the front desk.
You got both barrels you’re outta here.
When you interview treat everybody like they have a veto. Hotel staff, van driver, HR assistant signing you in, the cleaner you pass in the hallway.
Not that they’ll ask the cleaner about you but somebody walking by might just catch you being a d!ck.
When you’re in a group of applicants be polite and don’t try and be the top monkey on the hill.
Immediately grabbing the alpha male role in a group and starting with your war stories won’t go over well when observed.
Bad mouthing your present or past employers doesn’t go over well either.
In my last interview we had a guy who looked like his blind mother picked out his clothes.
Like he’s literally wearing a suit where nothing matches, jacket doesn’t match the pants doesn’t match the shirt doesn’t match the shoes. Here’s another guy who in a room full of strangers immediately starts talking Air Force stories and him flying his lawn dart. Cool story brah....

Theres more to an interview then showing up on time and having an answer to everything.

That's just what fighter people do.... I'd be worried about one who DIDN'T tell me he was a fighter pilot.

All time record for that, got on the employee bus, mostly ground staff but one other pilot got on and sat next to me (complete stranger, different airline). I started the usual "how ya doin? Where ya goin today?"... it took literally less than 30 seconds for him to work into the conversation that he was an ex Blue Angel. Usually that would happen on the taxi out with most guys

Former Blue Angel... ex-wife(s)
Wife is the only ex, everything else is former.
Must have been Delta.

Your name might show up on some TSA/Homeland blacklist. This is actually fairly common. Go get Global Entry, this will build a specific file for your name. If your name is indeed similar to a blacklisted person it will assign you a special reference number which you should pass on during future background checks etc

Nothing about it makes sense except maybe you need to work on your interview skills. You said you know how to interview, but as someone who has interviewed people before, it is unbelievable what some people think is an appropriate answer to questions. I recommend going to an interview service and seeing what they have to say.

Seems your definitions of fine and great aren't the same as Envoy and Mesa.

Maybe, maybe not, As we've discussed it could have been something they found after the interview.

Check your social media. Both Envoy and Mesa screen your online presence during the interview process. Neither company will take a risk with someone they view as a social liability.

You're getting great advice here. Sometimes you may *think* you did great at the interview or phone screening but are completely unaware that what you might consider "great" isn't what the interviewer perceived.

After two TBNT this close together, whether or not it was just bad luck, it's time to get a professional interview company involved. Emerald Coast is probably a good place to start. None of this is entirely out of the ordinary either, btw. It happens.

There are people with DUIs and airplane accidents at Mesa. I doubt they care about some civil traffic infractions.

For them to say no 30 minutes after a phone call, it must be something fairly obvious.

A professional aviation interview prep company is now the best thing you could do.

I don’t think think there’s much they could find in 30 minutes. That’s basically just enough time for the interview panel to confirm they all agree and then pass on the “no” to HR.

He messed up in the interview somewhere.

Do you have any friends that are already 121 pilots? Find someone that would be unbiased and do a mock interview with them. Ask them if anything out of the ordinary stands out.