ALPA Attack on SkyWest Airlines Fails
06-30-2007, 06:06 PM
#41
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 30 West
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
If you were to really care about the SKW Pilots, let them vote ALPA in when they feel it is appropriate.
How long have you been off IOE now?
06-30-2007, 06:18 PM
#42
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 657
I believe right now SKYW is entering a world of hurt. That is just my Fundamental, Operational and Technical assessment of the company.
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, MESA, RAH, et el. Management's comment . . . "Oh! You noticed that!"
2) Their stock chart looks headed technically down to $17.00 or lower. The other carriers (MESA, FRNT, XJT, RJET, LCC, UAUA, CAL, JBLU, all look lower too)
3) Attrition. They are having difficulties staffing pilots, rampers, flight attendants. People are leaving the company. I believe in December SKYW came out and said that it was short around 300-400 ground people in Denver.
4) Lack of Professionalism among the rank and file. If you ever pass through SLC ( I do on ocassion) You will see younger and younger faces. These faces have no idea what Decorum is. (They chew gum, talk during safety briefings when flying another airline, chase each other in the concourse, and in one incidence while flying First class in one of Delta's new Crj900's, (or SKYW I guess) I actually heard a whole conversation that two Flight Attendants were having about religion, marriage, divorce, and the party they went to the night before. The person seated next to me and I were dumbfounded.
5) Operationally they lack the systems to run things efficiently and people to implement what systems they do have. SKYW is undergoing difficulties because of the growth they have experienced. The size of their organization has out paced the operational functionality they have in place. They are holding on too tightly vs. allowing their people to help grow their airline.
6) New leadership. SKYW replaced most of their Experienced senior executive staff a few months ago. I'm not one to believe that the new staff is able to grasp what is needed to run an airline. They don't have the experience. But with that said, they also are not as jaded as previous management. Yet! Just take a look at NWA, blaming cancellations on pilots, weather, controllers, maintenance. Basically blaming it on anything that the public will buy vs. stating that they (NWA Corporate) screwed up in assessing demand. Management is pointing the finger. Expect to see this happen soon at SKYW if UAL and DAL start redistributing flying to other carriers (MESA excepted)
7) Their income comes from their contracts. If they cannot retain those contracts, or if UAL and DAL decide to start operating larger RJ's, SKYW will slowly deminish. It is not out of the realm. With UAL ****ed off, and DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
8) A Union Drive- It hurts the company by driving away investors.
9) Industry Turmoil and Passenger resentment toward the lack of service in the airline industry. As well as Congress' potential Airline Bill of Rights.
There is much more that can be added to the list but that is a basic start. It's not just SKYW, you can add other airlines under many of these topics.
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, MESA, RAH, et el. Management's comment . . . "Oh! You noticed that!"
2) Their stock chart looks headed technically down to $17.00 or lower. The other carriers (MESA, FRNT, XJT, RJET, LCC, UAUA, CAL, JBLU, all look lower too)
3) Attrition. They are having difficulties staffing pilots, rampers, flight attendants. People are leaving the company. I believe in December SKYW came out and said that it was short around 300-400 ground people in Denver.
4) Lack of Professionalism among the rank and file. If you ever pass through SLC ( I do on ocassion) You will see younger and younger faces. These faces have no idea what Decorum is. (They chew gum, talk during safety briefings when flying another airline, chase each other in the concourse, and in one incidence while flying First class in one of Delta's new Crj900's, (or SKYW I guess) I actually heard a whole conversation that two Flight Attendants were having about religion, marriage, divorce, and the party they went to the night before. The person seated next to me and I were dumbfounded.
5) Operationally they lack the systems to run things efficiently and people to implement what systems they do have. SKYW is undergoing difficulties because of the growth they have experienced. The size of their organization has out paced the operational functionality they have in place. They are holding on too tightly vs. allowing their people to help grow their airline.
6) New leadership. SKYW replaced most of their Experienced senior executive staff a few months ago. I'm not one to believe that the new staff is able to grasp what is needed to run an airline. They don't have the experience. But with that said, they also are not as jaded as previous management. Yet! Just take a look at NWA, blaming cancellations on pilots, weather, controllers, maintenance. Basically blaming it on anything that the public will buy vs. stating that they (NWA Corporate) screwed up in assessing demand. Management is pointing the finger. Expect to see this happen soon at SKYW if UAL and DAL start redistributing flying to other carriers (MESA excepted)
7) Their income comes from their contracts. If they cannot retain those contracts, or if UAL and DAL decide to start operating larger RJ's, SKYW will slowly deminish. It is not out of the realm. With UAL ****ed off, and DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
8) A Union Drive- It hurts the company by driving away investors.
9) Industry Turmoil and Passenger resentment toward the lack of service in the airline industry. As well as Congress' potential Airline Bill of Rights.
There is much more that can be added to the list but that is a basic start. It's not just SKYW, you can add other airlines under many of these topics.
06-30-2007, 07:15 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 657
Originally Posted by YAKflyer
Bingo! But don't assume the majority don't want real representation. ALPA has collected cards from more than 50% of the pilots, but not as many as they want to call for a vote
06-30-2007, 09:37 PM
#44
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Salmon-37 FO
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Why should it? SkyWest has failed to win any new awards in the RFP bidding. They have been beat by Pinnacle, Express Jet, Mesa, and even Comair.
Any SKW payrate defender needs to look at the rates for Horizon. Tops in the industry for the CRJ700, by a large margin too. BTW Seattle is not that far away from St. George, UT, either.
06-30-2007, 09:44 PM
#45
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Body at sea level; heart at 70,000+
Posts: 1,349
Originally Posted by Ellen
I believe right now SKYW is entering a world of hurt. That is just my Fundamental, Operational and Technical assessment of the company.
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, . . . ..
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, . . . ..
06-30-2007, 10:50 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: Cessna 152 Captain
Posts: 695
Originally Posted by Ellen
I believe right now SKYW is entering a world of hurt. That is just my Fundamental, Operational and Technical assessment of the company.
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, MESA, RAH, et el. Management's comment . . . "Oh! You noticed that!"
2) Their stock chart looks headed technically down to $17.00 or lower. The other carriers (MESA, FRNT, XJT, RJET, LCC, UAUA, CAL, JBLU, all look lower too)
3) Attrition. They are having difficulties staffing pilots, rampers, flight attendants. People are leaving the company. I believe in December SKYW came out and said that it was short around 300-400 ground people in Denver.
4) Lack of Professionalism among the rank and file. If you ever pass through SLC ( I do on ocassion) You will see younger and younger faces. These faces have no idea what Decorum is. (They chew gum, talk during safety briefings when flying another airline, chase each other in the concourse, and in one incidence while flying First class in one of Delta's new Crj900's, (or SKYW I guess) I actually heard a whole conversation that two Flight Attendants were having about religion, marriage, divorce, and the party they went to the night before. The person seated next to me and I were dumbfounded.
5) Operationally they lack the systems to run things efficiently and people to implement what systems they do have. SKYW is undergoing difficulties because of the growth they have experienced. The size of their organization has out paced the operational functionality they have in place. They are holding on too tightly vs. allowing their people to help grow their airline.
6) New leadership. SKYW replaced most of their Experienced senior executive staff a few months ago. I'm not one to believe that the new staff is able to grasp what is needed to run an airline. They don't have the experience. But with that said, they also are not as jaded as previous management. Yet! Just take a look at NWA, blaming cancellations on pilots, weather, controllers, maintenance. Basically blaming it on anything that the public will buy vs. stating that they (NWA Corporate) screwed up in assessing demand. Management is pointing the finger. Expect to see this happen soon at SKYW if UAL and DAL start redistributing flying to other carriers (MESA excepted)
7) Their income comes from their contracts. If they cannot retain those contracts, or if UAL and DAL decide to start operating larger RJ's, SKYW will slowly deminish. It is not out of the realm. With UAL ****ed off, and DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
8) A Union Drive- It hurts the company by driving away investors.
9) Industry Turmoil and Passenger resentment toward the lack of service in the airline industry. As well as Congress' potential Airline Bill of Rights.
There is much more that can be added to the list but that is a basic start. It's not just SKYW, you can add other airlines under many of these topics.
1) I agree, they are losing RFP's. Management sounded very surprised when an analyst mentioned that Delta was giving flying to Compass, MESA, RAH, et el. Management's comment . . . "Oh! You noticed that!"
2) Their stock chart looks headed technically down to $17.00 or lower. The other carriers (MESA, FRNT, XJT, RJET, LCC, UAUA, CAL, JBLU, all look lower too)
3) Attrition. They are having difficulties staffing pilots, rampers, flight attendants. People are leaving the company. I believe in December SKYW came out and said that it was short around 300-400 ground people in Denver.
4) Lack of Professionalism among the rank and file. If you ever pass through SLC ( I do on ocassion) You will see younger and younger faces. These faces have no idea what Decorum is. (They chew gum, talk during safety briefings when flying another airline, chase each other in the concourse, and in one incidence while flying First class in one of Delta's new Crj900's, (or SKYW I guess) I actually heard a whole conversation that two Flight Attendants were having about religion, marriage, divorce, and the party they went to the night before. The person seated next to me and I were dumbfounded.
5) Operationally they lack the systems to run things efficiently and people to implement what systems they do have. SKYW is undergoing difficulties because of the growth they have experienced. The size of their organization has out paced the operational functionality they have in place. They are holding on too tightly vs. allowing their people to help grow their airline.
6) New leadership. SKYW replaced most of their Experienced senior executive staff a few months ago. I'm not one to believe that the new staff is able to grasp what is needed to run an airline. They don't have the experience. But with that said, they also are not as jaded as previous management. Yet! Just take a look at NWA, blaming cancellations on pilots, weather, controllers, maintenance. Basically blaming it on anything that the public will buy vs. stating that they (NWA Corporate) screwed up in assessing demand. Management is pointing the finger. Expect to see this happen soon at SKYW if UAL and DAL start redistributing flying to other carriers (MESA excepted)
7) Their income comes from their contracts. If they cannot retain those contracts, or if UAL and DAL decide to start operating larger RJ's, SKYW will slowly deminish. It is not out of the realm. With UAL ****ed off, and DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
8) A Union Drive- It hurts the company by driving away investors.
9) Industry Turmoil and Passenger resentment toward the lack of service in the airline industry. As well as Congress' potential Airline Bill of Rights.
There is much more that can be added to the list but that is a basic start. It's not just SKYW, you can add other airlines under many of these topics.
DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
Where did you hear that one from.. I would really like to know. I ask because I jump seat on Delta Main Line about 2-3 times a week and no main line pilot has mentioned that to me,
07-01-2007, 04:48 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Delta has been looking at a 100 seat aircraft for a couple of years now. They know Boeing is going to follow on the 787 with a 737 sized replacement using the technology from the 787 program. Like the 787, the new Boeing small jet is percieved as a game changer.
Delta has also been seriously considering the E190 from what I've read, but they don't like the performance of the aircraft. They don't like the ergonomics of the CRJ as a mainline jet.
So the best option seems to be to wait for Boeing. However, Boeing is waiting on GE and the other engine manufacturers and the 737 is still selling well. Delta has 10 737-600's coming, which is a 100 seat jet.
Delta has also been seriously considering the E190 from what I've read, but they don't like the performance of the aircraft. They don't like the ergonomics of the CRJ as a mainline jet.
So the best option seems to be to wait for Boeing. However, Boeing is waiting on GE and the other engine manufacturers and the 737 is still selling well. Delta has 10 737-600's coming, which is a 100 seat jet.
07-01-2007, 06:25 AM
#48
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by Blkflyer
DAL looking to fly 90 seat CRJ's with mainline pilots, this is a real possibility.
Where did you hear that one from.. I would really like to know. I ask because I jump seat on Delta Main Line about 2-3 times a week and no main line pilot has mentioned that to me,
Where did you hear that one from.. I would really like to know. I ask because I jump seat on Delta Main Line about 2-3 times a week and no main line pilot has mentioned that to me,
07-01-2007, 07:00 AM
#50
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by ExperimentalAB
Now is not the time. We all appreciate everything that those, such as the Comair Pilots gave up, but I cannot see how this directly relates (or quite frankly, indirectly) to the SkyWest group.
You are wrong that Jerry increases our Pay incrementally only to stay ahead of those represented by ALPA. Partially, I am sure, but now wholly. Ya'll have been BURNED so much by Mgmt that you can no longer believe that there is some good out there. And some of that good is in our Mgmt team. Sure, we could fight for a few nickels here and there, but it's not all about ME, ME, ME. I want to see the company succeed and do well, and I have no problem making small concessions to make that happen...Maybe I'm just a team player ::gasp::
The SKW Pilot group joining ALPA is NOT going to benefit those at Mesa or TSA, get over it. It is NOT going to benefit the Pilots at SKW either. Get over it. In an Industry smothered by bad-blood between employee and employer, there are a few carriers out there that have managed to stay above it. Arguments here from those outside SKW are beginning to smack of Jealousy.
And finally, I am SICK, SICK, SICK of hearing from this board's members why SKW Pilots should vote in ALPA on moral grounds. Can you not see how selfish that is? Why would you wish that upon another Pilot group? If nothing else, what is left of the family atmosphere at SKW would DISAPPEAR completely, and be replaced by tension and distrust, nearly overnight. Understand that what you are asking of these pilots is to give up much of what they love about going to work. And for what? To please a few of you? And ALPA, of course...hell, we know they're chomping at the bit for a bit of each Paycheck, with absolutely nothing to offer...imagine that!
Leave SkyWest ALONE. If you were to really care about the SKW Pilots, let them vote ALPA in when they feel it is appropriate.
You are wrong that Jerry increases our Pay incrementally only to stay ahead of those represented by ALPA. Partially, I am sure, but now wholly. Ya'll have been BURNED so much by Mgmt that you can no longer believe that there is some good out there. And some of that good is in our Mgmt team. Sure, we could fight for a few nickels here and there, but it's not all about ME, ME, ME. I want to see the company succeed and do well, and I have no problem making small concessions to make that happen...Maybe I'm just a team player ::gasp::
The SKW Pilot group joining ALPA is NOT going to benefit those at Mesa or TSA, get over it. It is NOT going to benefit the Pilots at SKW either. Get over it. In an Industry smothered by bad-blood between employee and employer, there are a few carriers out there that have managed to stay above it. Arguments here from those outside SKW are beginning to smack of Jealousy.
And finally, I am SICK, SICK, SICK of hearing from this board's members why SKW Pilots should vote in ALPA on moral grounds. Can you not see how selfish that is? Why would you wish that upon another Pilot group? If nothing else, what is left of the family atmosphere at SKW would DISAPPEAR completely, and be replaced by tension and distrust, nearly overnight. Understand that what you are asking of these pilots is to give up much of what they love about going to work. And for what? To please a few of you? And ALPA, of course...hell, we know they're chomping at the bit for a bit of each Paycheck, with absolutely nothing to offer...imagine that!
Leave SkyWest ALONE. If you were to really care about the SKW Pilots, let them vote ALPA in when they feel it is appropriate.
you respond with pure emotion, no facts to back up your arguement, and chose to completely ignore the arguement I and others laid out.
"You are wrong that Jerry increases our Pay incrementally only to stay ahead of those represented by ALPA."
No, that's not wrong, and previous strings have detailed this. Maybe you didn't have time or the inclination to look them up, but two were laid out for you in this string.
(1)Com air strike.... What contractual gains came to you within the next 12 months after they got a contract?
(2) JA buys ASA and comes to the pilot group and says we have to take a 13% pay cut. Our union fights it (how, with a binding contract otherwise he could have just enforced the pay cut and we would have had to accept it or quit) So then what happens. Skywest pilots get over ride to fly 70/90.
These are facts, they are not in dispute by anyone that has been around the industry for the past 7-15 years and knows what they are talking about.
I really don't care that your sick of hearing that their is a moral arguement, because their is one. You reap the benefits of other peoples efforts, and then some of you even have the arrogance to brag about it. That's wrong, plain and simple. I won't lay it all out again, but go back line by line and respond with an intelligent arguement to previous post. It is not selfish to expect that one group who reaps the benefit of the efforts of the many, get on board, join the team (gasp, as you would say) and pay their dues (NOT JUST CASH, but time and effort).
"To what, please a few of you?" If that statement were true, it might have some wieght. Unfortunately it's not. The vast majority of airline pilot are represented and an even larger majority of those represented realize the need for it. Your not pleasing a few, but rather getting on the team that the vast majority of the industry has done.
Is it true that ALPA would destroy the relationship with Mang. that you enjoy? Maybe. the relationship with Mang. is all about the people that you elect, the expectations of the pilot group, and the day to day conduct of the pilot group. Their are ALPA carriers that have a good relationship with Mang. (Xjet) and their are in house that have a rocky relationship (AA).
"chomping at the bit for a paycheck" That arguement (as another post put up) is completely wrong. Regional carriers are still supplemented by ALPA national, maybe someday that will change, but right now it is true. See the arguement the other gentleman laid out, it was well said.
It is apparent to me that I will not change your mind. That's fine. I can not expect a man to understand the moral arguement when it is apparent he has none. But, for the many who read this forum and are still trying to make a decision, I hope you read all the post and consider the arguments (or lack of in EXP case) when you decide what you think is best for your LONG TERM Career.
Stick /COLOR]
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