Checkride failures
07-01-2007, 08:57 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Citation Captain
Posts: 121
[quote=P.S.S. - I didn't know Riddle lost Examining Authority on their Commercial Syllabus...that's not a good thing.[/quote]
They didn't, they went to training under Part 142 where the checkpilots are now DPE's and they issue pink slips now.
They didn't, they went to training under Part 142 where the checkpilots are now DPE's and they issue pink slips now.
07-01-2007, 09:15 AM
#12
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
End of course, as far as flying goes, is just one of those 3hrs in prep for your checkride. You can't get your certificate for completing it. If asked if you've ever failed a checkride you say NO! Having to redo a "lesson" is no big deal and doesn't need to be brought up.
Not necessarily true...
Some 141 schools have examining authority some ratings, some do not.
All 141 programs MUST conduct an in-house End-of-Course check.
If your school does not have examing authority, then you also take another EOC check with a DPE. Technically this is also a 141 check and cannot be failed (only "incomplete"). Some DPE's will incorrectly issue a pink slip however.
If your school has examining authority for that rating, then the in-house EOC check serves as your checkride, and results in a certificate being issued.
If you failed an in-house EOC check that was not the final certificate check, you don't have to mention that if some asks about checkrides.
If you failed an in-house check that WAS supposed to result in a certificate, that is technically not a checkride either but some folks might still think that you should tell them. It would be hard for an employer to find out though...the FAA does NOT get these records (they only get a record of when a certificate is issued). The 141 school must keep it's records for 3 years however.
A couple of gotchas...
#1 If a DPE does a 141 EOC check and issues a pink slip (they are not supposed to for 141 but sometimes do anyway) then you now have a checkride failure on your FAA record! If you actually got a pink slip, better report it!
#2 PRIA does NOT apply to your student history, and you do not have to send a PRIA form to a school where you trained for ratings. HOWEVER, if you got your ratings at a school and subsequently worked there as a CFI...the PRIA records will go to that school cuz they employed you, and the wording seems to indicate that they must provide ALL records they have on you. Legally a grey area, but many schools will return your student training records along with any employee records for a PRIA request. This could include your stage and EOC failures! Airline recruiters are unlikely to understand the nuances of 141 administration and may view a failure as a failure.
07-01-2007, 09:21 AM
#13
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
How sure are you rick? Not calling you out I'm just trying to get the wheels grinding in my mind on this one. I've never seen a 141 school that counts the EOC as the checkride. TSTC and the few others that I have seen all make you do the EOC and if that looks good then send you up with the examiner. The EOC is part of the 141 syllabus that states you're found competent and ready to take the checkride. To do the EOC and include your certificate in it would make it a checkride. The purpose of an EOC is to see if you are proficient and ready for the checkride, not give a certificate of pink slip. The places I've seen, and granted not too many, do not include the certificate. The EOC is part 141 requirement but the checkride can be done 61 or 141 and was always separate(at least in my mind). Does ERAU count the EOC as the checkride? That's a new one on me. Doesn't change the fact though that without a pink slip you never failed anything.
07-01-2007, 09:36 AM
#14
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
How sure are you rick? Not calling you out I'm just trying to get the wheels grinding in my mind on this one. I've never seen a 141 school that counts the EOC as the checkride. TSTC and the few others that I have seen all make you do the EOC and if that looks good then send you up with the examiner. The EOC is part of the 141 syllabus that states you're found competent and ready to take the checkride. To do the EOC and include your certificate in it would make it a checkride. The purpose of an EOC is to see if you are proficient and ready for the checkride, not give a certificate of pink slip. The places I've seen, and granted not too many, do not include the certificate. The EOC is part 141 requirement but the checkride can be done 61 or 141 and was always separate(at least in my mind). Does ERAU count the EOC as the checkride? That's a new one on me. Doesn't change the fact though that without a pink slip you never failed anything.
The examing authority privilege is pretty hard to get and many school don't have it. In fact there has been a trend in the last few years for the FAA to remove examing authority at the slightest excuse (my old employer lost theirs...or "voluntarily surrendered" it
) I think the feds may be trying to regain control over that after some percieved abuses. Also while PVT, IR, and COMM examing authority was not unusual, I don't know of any school that had authority for CFI rides (although it's thoeretically possible per the regs).
07-01-2007, 10:50 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: BE99 Single Pilot
Posts: 115
#2 PRIA does NOT apply to your student history, and you do not have to send a PRIA form to a school where you trained for ratings. HOWEVER, if you got your ratings at a school and subsequently worked there as a CFI...the PRIA records will go to that school cuz they employed you, and the wording seems to indicate that they must provide ALL records they have on you. Legally a grey area, but many schools will return your student training records along with any employee records for a PRIA request. This could include your stage and EOC failures! Airline recruiters are unlikely to understand the nuances of 141 administration and may view a failure as a failure.[/QUOTE]
Is that just for the ratings completed under part 141, or are part 61 records included?
Is that just for the ratings completed under part 141, or are part 61 records included?
07-01-2007, 10:58 AM
#17
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
As far as PRIA is concerned if your school or where you're a CFI treats you like a contractor then you don't have to worry about it. Just put self employeed on it. I told RAH about me being a CFI at a couple places and they told me because I was I filed a 1099 w/the IRS I just had to write "Self employed" on the PRIA and that was it.
07-01-2007, 11:29 AM
#18
DisplAAced
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: EMB-145 FO
Posts: 638
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Positive. I worked at two 141 schools and was a 141 asst. chief w/ examining authority myself.
The examing authority privilege is pretty hard to get and many school don't have it. In fact there has been a trend in the last few years for the FAA to remove examing authority at the slightest excuse (my old employer lost theirs...or "voluntarily surrendered" it ) I think the feds may be trying to regain control over that after some percieved abuses. Also while PVT, IR, and COMM examing authority was not unusual, I don't know of any school that had authority for CFI rides (although it's thoeretically possible per the regs).
The examing authority privilege is pretty hard to get and many school don't have it. In fact there has been a trend in the last few years for the FAA to remove examing authority at the slightest excuse (my old employer lost theirs...or "voluntarily surrendered" it
) I think the feds may be trying to regain control over that after some percieved abuses. Also while PVT, IR, and COMM examing authority was not unusual, I don't know of any school that had authority for CFI rides (although it's thoeretically possible per the regs).
07-01-2007, 12:18 PM
#19
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,275
Originally Posted by azvandriver
#2 PRIA does NOT apply to your student history, and you do not have to send a PRIA form to a school where you trained for ratings. HOWEVER, if you got your ratings at a school and subsequently worked there as a CFI...the PRIA records will go to that school cuz they employed you, and the wording seems to indicate that they must provide ALL records they have on you. Legally a grey area, but many schools will return your student training records along with any employee records for a PRIA request. This could include your stage and EOC failures! Airline recruiters are unlikely to understand the nuances of 141 administration and may view a failure as a failure.
Is that just for the ratings completed under part 141, or are part 61 records included?[/QUOTE]
Part 61 checkride pass and fail info is part of your FAA record and may be accessible by a 121 employer. Don't lie about.
07-01-2007, 01:33 PM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 80
[quote=rickair7777;188311]Not necessarily true...
If your school does not have examing authority, then you also take another EOC check with a DPE. Technically this is also a 141 check and cannot be failed (only "incomplete"). Some DPE's will incorrectly issue a pink slip however.
Not true. There might be a regional issues with this but i know that anywhere in the salt lake fsdo area and phoenix if you take a checkride with a DPE and fail it is a failure. It does not matter if you were part 61 or 141. The only difference for them is the paperwork and other things they have to verify before the checkride. If you get a letter of disaproval a copy is sent to the faa for the record.
If your school does not have examing authority, then you also take another EOC check with a DPE. Technically this is also a 141 check and cannot be failed (only "incomplete"). Some DPE's will incorrectly issue a pink slip however.
Not true. There might be a regional issues with this but i know that anywhere in the salt lake fsdo area and phoenix if you take a checkride with a DPE and fail it is a failure. It does not matter if you were part 61 or 141. The only difference for them is the paperwork and other things they have to verify before the checkride. If you get a letter of disaproval a copy is sent to the faa for the record.
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