Future of the airline industry and regional hiring frenzy
10-12-2007 | 11:52 AM
#11
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From: Air Bus Driver
No, I'm not rich. I have gotten quotes from local flight schools and with some multi-engine time the cost is very similar. I am not going to take out loans to pay for the flight training. My parents are going to be the bank and I have to pay them back the capital + 5% interest. Better than any financing I have seen. Is ATP a legitimate place to train. It seems like they have good connections with some quality regional airlines.
10-12-2007 | 11:59 AM
#13
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From: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
I'm not a fan of the ACPP program at ATP, as you get all you go from PPL to CFI in 90 days and then turn around start teaching. Your local flight school maybe be just as good of a place to get your ratings through Commercial, then an ATP type of school for a rating or two. You can save a lot of money doing it this way and end up with better training, in some circumstances.
Flight training is 90 percent about you (attitude/desire), your CFI (experience), and an airplane (balance between cost/quality).
I wouldn't worry about "connections with quality airlines". If you put in your time to become a good pilot, you'll have the experience to get hired. In this day and age, connections are highly overrated.
Flight training is 90 percent about you (attitude/desire), your CFI (experience), and an airplane (balance between cost/quality).
I wouldn't worry about "connections with quality airlines". If you put in your time to become a good pilot, you'll have the experience to get hired. In this day and age, connections are highly overrated.
10-12-2007 | 12:34 PM
#14
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From: Air Bus Driver
Thanks for the feedback DE727ups. It seems like ATP has a pretty good deal. Some local flight schools quoted prices (ME time included) close to 60k. I was looking at ATP due to the speed of the program as well as quality aircraft. Timing is critical in the airline industry (as you probably well know), and I am just afraid that if I go to a local facility that it might take me 1-2 yrs and I will have missed the hiring cycle. By the way, congratulations on being CA at UPS. You are in a position alot of individuals would love to have.
One more question, in your opinion, do you think it is a good time to become a pilot, and is there a positive outlook for the future of the aviation industry?
Thanks for your feedback. Believe it or not, my career goal if I become a commercial pilot is to eventually fly for Fed-X or UPS.
One more question, in your opinion, do you think it is a good time to become a pilot, and is there a positive outlook for the future of the aviation industry?
Thanks for your feedback. Believe it or not, my career goal if I become a commercial pilot is to eventually fly for Fed-X or UPS.
10-12-2007 | 01:41 PM
#15
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From: Spartan
Thanks for the feedback DE727ups. It seems like ATP has a pretty good deal. Some local flight schools quoted prices (ME time included) close to 60k. I was looking at ATP due to the speed of the program as well as quality aircraft. Timing is critical in the airline industry (as you probably well know), and I am just afraid that if I go to a local facility that it might take me 1-2 yrs and I will have missed the hiring cycle. By the way, congratulations on being CA at UPS. You are in a position alot of individuals would love to have.
One more question, in your opinion, do you think it is a good time to become a pilot, and is there a positive outlook for the future of the aviation industry?
Thanks for your feedback. Believe it or not, my career goal if I become a commercial pilot is to eventually fly for Fed-X or UPS.
One more question, in your opinion, do you think it is a good time to become a pilot, and is there a positive outlook for the future of the aviation industry?
Thanks for your feedback. Believe it or not, my career goal if I become a commercial pilot is to eventually fly for Fed-X or UPS.
10-12-2007 | 01:55 PM
#16
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
) indicates that it may be based on some rational statistics. But don't get too excited! The vast majority of those jobs will be overseas in places that don't hire Americans (Europe) or places that you might not want to live for long.
While there are always a few Americans willing to do the ex-pat thing, for most of us a US company is the only long-term option. Especially if you're married. Dubai is nice, but only for so long...
10-12-2007 | 04:03 PM
#17
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From: C152
I think they might be making that statement from their aircraft orders (projected and actual) but I don't know.
10-12-2007 | 04:19 PM
#18
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From: Satan's Camaro
www.prairieairservice.com, You and your parent's bank account can thank me later.
Time Building Operating Procedures: Our insurance requires an instructor to be on board our Apache at all times. The instructor will occupy a passenger seat in back and act as coach during the flight, which will insure that these flights also provide enhanced instrument training to both pilots. This is especially helpful if one of the pilots is not yet instrument rated. The instructor shall occupy the right (co-pilot) seat for all take offs and landings at runways shorter than 4000 feet, at airport elevations above 7000 feet, or if strong wind, turbulence or other safety concerns exist. The safety pilot will occupy a rear seat during this time. Upon departing the traffic pattern, or approaching the pattern of such an airport, the instructor and safety pilot will trade places. No engine out emergency procedures shall be practiced with the instructor in the back seat. Should an actual emergency occur, the instructor will move to the left (pilot’s) seat after the situation has been stabilized.
Additional Costs (on extended cross country flights): On extended flights all out of town expenses (such as hotels, restaurants, rental cars, entry fees, tie down and landing fees), including the instructor’s expenses, are the responsibility of the pilots flying the trip. A cross country fuel surcharge will apply to fuel purchases away from home base. Our hourly rates are based on our bulk fuel costs at Benton. Retail fuel costs are about $1.25 per gallon higher than our bulk cost, which will increase the hourly operating cost by about $20.00.
Additional Costs (on extended cross country flights): On extended flights all out of town expenses (such as hotels, restaurants, rental cars, entry fees, tie down and landing fees), including the instructor’s expenses, are the responsibility of the pilots flying the trip. A cross country fuel surcharge will apply to fuel purchases away from home base. Our hourly rates are based on our bulk fuel costs at Benton. Retail fuel costs are about $1.25 per gallon higher than our bulk cost, which will increase the hourly operating cost by about $20.00.
Sounds phenomenal. Not only will you be required to be babysat the entire time by, literally, a backseat driver, but you have to pay for all of their expenses when out of town. Well, backseat until conditions might be scary, then you get to pay to sit in the back seat, and then you have to dry hump your fellow pilots while getting back into the front seat in the roomyness that is an Apache.
I can see it now:
"Engine failure! Ok ok, mixture props throttl" "NO! THIS IS AN EMERGENCY!! TIME FOR A TIME OUT IN THE BACK SEAT!!!"
Ick. Go where you want, and pay what you want, I will leave you with this little bit of advice. While almost all of the flight schools are over priced, ATP, in my opinion, has one of the less over priced plans, simply because they give you so much multi time. I never did it so I can't attest to the quality of their training beyond that the people who I've flown with from ATP seem to at least have a basic level of competence, which is not something that can be said about everybody.
10-12-2007 | 04:52 PM
#19
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Out.
Rick,
I have no experience with ATP, but take the projections and the "promises" they and ALL OTHER flight schools make with a huge grain of salt. They are selling a product, not giving career advice.
If you watch commercials, the medical industry will soon colapse unless YOU come to the Acme School of Medical File Clerking. Medical File Clercking is rapidly growing field.... and knowing that you are helping people is so rewarding Not to mention, You will be working with DOCTORS In just a few short weeks... blah blah blah.
I instructed at a "Factory" flight school. It was outstanding at producing 71% private pilots (anything over 71% is overkill, right?). IF the student/new private pilot understood they were a 71 percenter and had a bunch to learn yet, they did just fine. NO school can teach you EVERYTHING.
One inherent down side of the super fast training, is you only experience one season in one location, very little bad weather, and almost no decision making..... though, the regionals don't seem to care.
To cut your costs some:
If you plan on getting instructor ratings, start flying from the right seat right after you get your private (and multi). I had some students who did this, and they eliminated about 80% of the usual dual time after the comercial ratings. I even had one outstanding student who scheduled his CFI, CFII, and MEI the day he got his Commericals. I only flew one more hour with him before those checkrides: he passed them all on the first attemp.
HUGE WORD OF WARNING: DO NOT SOLO From the RIGHT SEAT unless you have determined:
1) the flight school allows it
2) the INSURANCE Company allows it and will PAY, heaven forbid, you bend an airplane, and
3) the POH allows solo from the right seat
I have no experience with ATP, but take the projections and the "promises" they and ALL OTHER flight schools make with a huge grain of salt. They are selling a product, not giving career advice.
If you watch commercials, the medical industry will soon colapse unless YOU come to the Acme School of Medical File Clerking. Medical File Clercking is rapidly growing field.... and knowing that you are helping people is so rewarding Not to mention, You will be working with DOCTORS
In just a few short weeks... blah blah blah.I instructed at a "Factory" flight school. It was outstanding at producing 71% private pilots (anything over 71% is overkill, right?). IF the student/new private pilot understood they were a 71 percenter and had a bunch to learn yet, they did just fine. NO school can teach you EVERYTHING.
One inherent down side of the super fast training, is you only experience one season in one location, very little bad weather, and almost no decision making..... though, the regionals don't seem to care.
To cut your costs some:
If you plan on getting instructor ratings, start flying from the right seat right after you get your private (and multi). I had some students who did this, and they eliminated about 80% of the usual dual time after the comercial ratings. I even had one outstanding student who scheduled his CFI, CFII, and MEI the day he got his Commericals. I only flew one more hour with him before those checkrides: he passed them all on the first attemp.
HUGE WORD OF WARNING: DO NOT SOLO From the RIGHT SEAT unless you have determined:
1) the flight school allows it
2) the INSURANCE Company allows it and will PAY, heaven forbid, you bend an airplane, and
3) the POH allows solo from the right seat
Last edited by FlyJSH; 10-12-2007 at 04:59 PM.
10-12-2007 | 05:10 PM
#20
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Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Air Bus Driver
Rick,
I have no experience with ATP, but take the projections and the "promises" they and ALL OTHER flight schools make with a huge grain of salt. They are selling a product, not giving career advice.
If you watch commercials, the medical industry will soon colapse unless YOU come to the Acme School of Medical File Clerking. Medical File Clercking is rapidly growing field.... and knowing that you are helping people is so rewarding Not to mention, You will be working with DOCTORS In just a few short weeks... blah blah blah.
I instructed at a "Factory" flight school. It was outstanding at producing 71% private pilots (anything over 71% is overkill, right?). IF the student/new private pilot understood they were a 71 percenter and had a bunch to learn yet, they did just fine. NO school can teach you EVERYTHING.
One inherent down side of the super fast training, is you only experience one season in one location, very little bad weather, and almost no decision making..... though, the regionals don't seem to care.
To cut your costs some:
If you plan on getting instructor ratings, start flying from the right seat right after you get your private (and multi). I had some students who did this, and they eliminated about 80% of the usual dual time after the comercial ratings. I even had one outstanding student who scheduled his CFI, CFII, and MEI the day he got his Commericals. I only flew one more hour with him before those checkrides: he passed them all on the first attemp.
HUGE WORD OF WARNING: DO NOT SOLO From the RIGHT SEAT unless you have determined:
1) the flight school allows it
2) the INSURANCE Company allows it and will PAY, heaven forbid, you bend an airplane, and
3) the POH allows solo from the right seat
I have no experience with ATP, but take the projections and the "promises" they and ALL OTHER flight schools make with a huge grain of salt. They are selling a product, not giving career advice.
If you watch commercials, the medical industry will soon colapse unless YOU come to the Acme School of Medical File Clerking. Medical File Clercking is rapidly growing field.... and knowing that you are helping people is so rewarding Not to mention, You will be working with DOCTORS
In just a few short weeks... blah blah blah.I instructed at a "Factory" flight school. It was outstanding at producing 71% private pilots (anything over 71% is overkill, right?). IF the student/new private pilot understood they were a 71 percenter and had a bunch to learn yet, they did just fine. NO school can teach you EVERYTHING.
One inherent down side of the super fast training, is you only experience one season in one location, very little bad weather, and almost no decision making..... though, the regionals don't seem to care.
To cut your costs some:
If you plan on getting instructor ratings, start flying from the right seat right after you get your private (and multi). I had some students who did this, and they eliminated about 80% of the usual dual time after the comercial ratings. I even had one outstanding student who scheduled his CFI, CFII, and MEI the day he got his Commericals. I only flew one more hour with him before those checkrides: he passed them all on the first attemp.
HUGE WORD OF WARNING: DO NOT SOLO From the RIGHT SEAT unless you have determined:
1) the flight school allows it
2) the INSURANCE Company allows it and will PAY, heaven forbid, you bend an airplane, and
3) the POH allows solo from the right seat
To be honest with you, ATP is the best priced school that I have come across. I live in Chicago, and pretty much all the flight schools quote a price of 30-40k for PPL through CFI. This doesnt include multi-engine time, jet training, etc. Im sure the quality of training is good, but it seems that ATP has a few more licenses and certificates in their program. Not to mention, it is a fixed stated cost. The flight schools provided quotes which could be more or less. Some of the flight schools in the chicagoland area quoted me prices of 65K total with about 50hrs of ME time. Regardless, flight training is very expensive. Thanks for the response
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