Pilot Job Satisfaction
11-29-2007 | 02:31 PM
#71
Moderator
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,634
Likes: 0
From: Tiki bar
diver driver, your first correction is incorrect. "was" is the correct form to use because it refers to the noun "description." i couldn't resist jumping into the "i am smarter than you, i have a higher GPA, my degree is better than yours, i have better grammar than you" battle of the century.
Anyway, now for my sarcastic, forum-esque response:
My bad home-slice... Even me, with my 4.2 GPA, Ph.D. in AstroEnglish and student pilot certificate is still prone to errors.
11-29-2007 | 02:43 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,899
Likes: 0
From: Leftof longitudinal
As a pilot, you are required to constantly complain! That is in the job description for crying out loud, geez, all these.......2.01 GPA underwater basket weaving degree @podunk u.
11-30-2007 | 04:47 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
From: 1st year pay for the 3rd time
Nerve
quote=rickdb;270893]
As for you LatePush, if you hate the industry so much than get out.
You sir have some nerve to tell someone trying to open your eyes to events not descibed in a brochure to leave the industry. Your only experience to this life style to date is a friend of your uncle who used to work for a regional. As with Diver Driver, I'm new to the industry as well. However, the last time I made this little $$ I worked for Sam's Club while going to school.
Now I love the job, and I have learned a lot flying with some great captains out of JFK. But TAFB will wear on you if you have a life back home. I remember a year ago someone posted how hard it was to leave his family for a week at time. A lot folks here shared their experience and tried to ease his pain. I didn't post but thought to myself that this guy was some kind of wuss. We all know the deal when we sign up to be an airline pilot. Well I was the ignorant one. Nothing stinks more then sitting in a crashpad for a week at a time praying to get used. And just when you think you can go home, BAM! scheduling hits you with an out and back that gets back in after your last flight home.
I think you should sit back and take in everyone's experience before you tell someone to leave the industry.
Oh and in regards to the pay.....Do you know of any other profession that requires you to spend close to $100k to qualify and then tell you how long you can be an airline pilot? Last time I checked doctors and lawyers aren't mandated to retire at the age of 60. And Social Insecurity will not kick in until age 67.
If you take nothing else away from my post, be careful what you say and to whom you say it to until you have walked the walk.
My .02
The Chow
As for you LatePush, if you hate the industry so much than get out.
You sir have some nerve to tell someone trying to open your eyes to events not descibed in a brochure to leave the industry. Your only experience to this life style to date is a friend of your uncle who used to work for a regional. As with Diver Driver, I'm new to the industry as well. However, the last time I made this little $$ I worked for Sam's Club while going to school.
Now I love the job, and I have learned a lot flying with some great captains out of JFK. But TAFB will wear on you if you have a life back home. I remember a year ago someone posted how hard it was to leave his family for a week at time. A lot folks here shared their experience and tried to ease his pain. I didn't post but thought to myself that this guy was some kind of wuss. We all know the deal when we sign up to be an airline pilot. Well I was the ignorant one. Nothing stinks more then sitting in a crashpad for a week at a time praying to get used. And just when you think you can go home, BAM! scheduling hits you with an out and back that gets back in after your last flight home.
I think you should sit back and take in everyone's experience before you tell someone to leave the industry.
Oh and in regards to the pay.....Do you know of any other profession that requires you to spend close to $100k to qualify and then tell you how long you can be an airline pilot? Last time I checked doctors and lawyers aren't mandated to retire at the age of 60. And Social Insecurity will not kick in until age 67.
If you take nothing else away from my post, be careful what you say and to whom you say it to until you have walked the walk.
My .02
The Chow
11-30-2007 | 06:04 AM
#74
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Airline Life
Flying can be fun. The airline life not so much.
If you have a loving family waiting for you at home then three nights away is torture, one week is hell and a month at at time leaves you returning home to strangers.
I always thought that most airline careers asked way too much for what they gave in return. If they are going to ask so much then pilots should be making a fortune. The problem is that we all get into this crazy profession back when we are young, idealistic and stupid. When we are 19 hotels and extended travel sounds like fun. We also think that $20,000 a year is a fortune when compared to our paper route job.
By the time most of us figure it out it is way too late.
SkyHigh
If you have a loving family waiting for you at home then three nights away is torture, one week is hell and a month at at time leaves you returning home to strangers.
I always thought that most airline careers asked way too much for what they gave in return. If they are going to ask so much then pilots should be making a fortune. The problem is that we all get into this crazy profession back when we are young, idealistic and stupid. When we are 19 hotels and extended travel sounds like fun. We also think that $20,000 a year is a fortune when compared to our paper route job.
By the time most of us figure it out it is way too late.
SkyHigh
11-30-2007 | 06:23 AM
#75
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Evidence
I think that regional pay is going to increase as a result of Majors dropping some routes to the regionals. If they dont increase pay, then in the future they arent going to have enough pilots to fly the aircraft. As for the majors, I dont think pay is going to increase at all. I think it is going to stay relatively the same. As airlines become more efficient, they will pay their pilots more, otherwise they wont have any pilots eventually. I think their is a very positive outlook for the aviation industry. If I didnt think that, I would not become a pilot.
Besides, who would pay much of anything for pilots anymore? Modern airplanes don't require nearly the same levels of skill that flying did in the past. It use to require situational awareness, eye-hand coordination and intense system and aerodynamics knowledge and experience.
Modern planes today are procedure and manual driven 20 million dollar video games in the sky. Pilots just sit there, arms folded, and watch the little plane track itself along the digital map. Just about any level of derelict can put on a uniform and sit there half asleep and do the job.
Pilots will not get paid more.
SkyHigh
11-30-2007 | 07:05 AM
#76
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 863
Likes: 2
From: Center seat, doing loops to music
I think the wildcard is timing. Excluding those who will always be unhappy because they don't make 250K a year with 20 days off a month, most of us could squeeze a modest living doing something we enjoy (flying) making 80-100K end game, even more if the wife works. The problem is that there are tough barriers to entry at different points in the career ladder, and depending on what stage in life you are in you might be outright priced out of it. I use the career changers as a perfect illustration of my point. Most of these people always complain of the boring life they had and how they long to do something they have a passion about, but most all the time their answer to first year regional pay is "I tapped into my savings". Well that's great you can do that (it's dumb imo but that's your choice) but it doesn't say much about the viability of this career for people that need to put food on the table for more than one mouth. You can choose to put your family through that hardship, but most people don't. Fair or not, the career is molded for people with little financial responsibility at the onset, since it is a de facto college living. I don't have kids and my fiance works as well, but even one year at 20K would set me back years, and I'm in 26.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
11-30-2007 | 07:20 AM
#77
Banned
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,929
Likes: 0
From: A-320
The regionals will not raise their wages. Historically airlines just lower their minimums whenever demand gets tight. Even now I have been told on this forum that several regionals are considering opening their own cadet programs to take non-pilots as new hires.
Besides, who would pay much of anything for pilots anymore? Modern airplanes don't require nearly the same levels of skill that flying did in the past. It use to require situational awareness, eye-hand coordination and intense system and aerodynamics knowledge and experience.
Modern planes today are procedure and manual driven 20 million dollar video games in the sky. Pilots just sit there, arms folded, and watch the little plane track itself along the digital map. Just about any level of derelict can put on a uniform and sit there half asleep and do the job.
Pilots will not get paid more. SkyHigh
Besides, who would pay much of anything for pilots anymore? Modern airplanes don't require nearly the same levels of skill that flying did in the past. It use to require situational awareness, eye-hand coordination and intense system and aerodynamics knowledge and experience.
Modern planes today are procedure and manual driven 20 million dollar video games in the sky. Pilots just sit there, arms folded, and watch the little plane track itself along the digital map. Just about any level of derelict can put on a uniform and sit there half asleep and do the job.
Pilots will not get paid more. SkyHigh
Well, Im officially a loser, my 3,000th post! In my early days can't say my 3,000th post would be in agreement of SkyHigh, but he is right, whats managements incentive to raise wages? nobody has walked off the job yet, and wages are at an all time low. I am in this industry for the long haul, I am gonna work with my union and do my best to unite whatever pilot group I am a part of to truly try and raise the bar. It is going to be a loooooooooong uphill battle. The money will never be where it was for a long long list of reasons, but mostly because management has learned full well how to take advantage of pilots, and the seniority system "go ahead and leave you'll start at 30k at another airline, so you can take the abuse here for 80k a year or go start somewhere else at 30K," what do you think the pilot is going to do? Lets not forget about the SkyBusses, and VA's either, there will always be someone out there that will do it for less.
SkyHigh is also correct, regionals for the most, part won't raise their wages, they don't need to, look at Eagle, they are one of the better paying regionals and cant get anybody to apply, meanwhile, low-paying airlines like Colgan and the classiest bunch of em all, Gojets, are not having any staffing problems.......
and lastly, look at CAL, no health care, and 30k for the first year, its a disgrace,. but guess what, there are thousands of people waiting in line to get an interview over there, including me
Last edited by JoeyMeatballs; 11-30-2007 at 07:32 AM.
11-30-2007 | 07:30 AM
#78
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Accept less
I think the wildcard is timing. Excluding those who will always be unhappy because they don't make 250K a year with 20 days off a month, most of us could squeeze a modest living doing something we enjoy (flying) making 80-100K end game, even more if the wife works. The problem is that there are tough barriers to entry at different points in the career ladder, and depending on what stage in life you are in you might be outright priced out of it. I use the career changers as a perfect illustration of my point. Most of these people always complain of the boring life they had and how they long to do something they have a passion about, but most all the time their answer to first year regional pay is "I tapped into my savings". Well that's great you can do that (it's dumb imo but that's your choice) but it doesn't say much about the viability of this career for people that need to put food on the table for more than one mouth. You can choose to put your family through that hardship, but most people don't. Fair or not, the career is molded for people with little financial responsibility at the onset, since it is a de facto college living. I don't have kids and my fiance works as well, but even one year at 20K would set me back years, and I'm in 26.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
The problem is that with every lowering of the bar that even our most modest expectations become difficult to reach.
The next group will be happy with a base anywhere in the US and half of what a garbageman earns.
SkyHigh
11-30-2007 | 08:31 AM
#79
Cleared for Takeoff
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
From: Air Bus Driver
I think the wildcard is timing. Excluding those who will always be unhappy because they don't make 250K a year with 20 days off a month, most of us could squeeze a modest living doing something we enjoy (flying) making 80-100K end game, even more if the wife works. The problem is that there are tough barriers to entry at different points in the career ladder, and depending on what stage in life you are in you might be outright priced out of it. I use the career changers as a perfect illustration of my point. Most of these people always complain of the boring life they had and how they long to do something they have a passion about, but most all the time their answer to first year regional pay is "I tapped into my savings". Well that's great you can do that (it's dumb imo but that's your choice) but it doesn't say much about the viability of this career for people that need to put food on the table for more than one mouth. You can choose to put your family through that hardship, but most people don't. Fair or not, the career is molded for people with little financial responsibility at the onset, since it is a de facto college living. I don't have kids and my fiance works as well, but even one year at 20K would set me back years, and I'm in 26.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
I think if I were a senior regional CA living on base, unless my base closed, I wouldn't move an inch. Yes, the decision to stay at a regional is monetarily short-sighted on a long term basis, but it might be worth no more reserve, extra time away from home and avoiding possible commute and/or relocation to another base due to a move to the majors; at an age where you probably have school aged children, the wife likes her job and the family is established with roots in the community. Not for everyone I guess.
11-30-2007 | 08:46 PM
#80
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: Jr. Gear Monkey
I don't know if it is a good idea to continue this thread; I apologize up front. I'm not sure where else to post. Let me state for the record that I'm not, nor ever have been, an airline pilot, I'm a wannabe
. I agree that rickrb has no place giving us a perspective on the industry. I read this forum to hear from people who are actually working as 121 pilots (no disrespect to the 135 guys, single pilot IFR, you guys rock). I need some help from those that work or have worked this job. I'm considering applying to a couple of regional carriers and am getting close to mins to apply (currently working as a CFII). I'm a career changer. After reading this thread and others like it, I come away feeling like I should run for my life away from flying airplanes for a living. I hear some of you when you say that you love your job, but sometimes it seems like its a token statement in light of the pile of reasons that many of you have for not liking it. I'm wondering, and really am humbly asking for honest responses, Should I run for my life from being a pilot? I'm not too far down this road yet. After reading the well crafted post about how many hours one pilot was actually TAFB and the 91 hours of unproductive time, I got a little depressed about my new choice of career, or should I say "rollover car crash"
Separately, let me just say that I wholeheartedly agree with the other posts that pilots should support in word and deed the idea that we are worth a good living. I think we should stand amoung other professionals expecting and commanding respect (without too much ego. I know that in the real world the almighty dollar drives things, but if we each made a decision to be as qualified as we can possibly be, and take the best jobs for which we are each qualified, we might just move it in a new direction. I know that each of us has a unique situation and reasons for doing what we are doing (in other words, no disrespect for those of you who are being abused by a crappy employer just to get more experience). This is probably just dream talk and not worth the time it took you to read it, but thanks for listening if you did.
. I agree that rickrb has no place giving us a perspective on the industry. I read this forum to hear from people who are actually working as 121 pilots (no disrespect to the 135 guys, single pilot IFR, you guys rock). I need some help from those that work or have worked this job. I'm considering applying to a couple of regional carriers and am getting close to mins to apply (currently working as a CFII). I'm a career changer. After reading this thread and others like it, I come away feeling like I should run for my life away from flying airplanes for a living. I hear some of you when you say that you love your job, but sometimes it seems like its a token statement in light of the pile of reasons that many of you have for not liking it. I'm wondering, and really am humbly asking for honest responses, Should I run for my life from being a pilot? I'm not too far down this road yet. After reading the well crafted post about how many hours one pilot was actually TAFB and the 91 hours of unproductive time, I got a little depressed about my new choice of career, or should I say "rollover car crash" Separately, let me just say that I wholeheartedly agree with the other posts that pilots should support in word and deed the idea that we are worth a good living. I think we should stand amoung other professionals expecting and commanding respect (without too much ego
. I know that in the real world the almighty dollar drives things, but if we each made a decision to be as qualified as we can possibly be, and take the best jobs for which we are each qualified, we might just move it in a new direction. I know that each of us has a unique situation and reasons for doing what we are doing (in other words, no disrespect for those of you who are being abused by a crappy employer just to get more experience). This is probably just dream talk and not worth the time it took you to read it, but thanks for listening if you did.
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