Flew a Sim yesterday
 

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to fly a MD-90 sim at a major airline training center. I had a great time. I realize now that a lot of folks on her eare right. Pilots definantly need to be paid more thanthey are to do what they do. Flying a jet is a totally differant experience than flying light twins or GA aircraft.

SO I have strenghtened my position that CFIing I do not believe will help you be a better part 121 FO on a jet. I am a CFI and nothing I learned inCFI school or anything Ipractice today as a CFI is going to help. I was introduced yesterday to auto throttles ( I had never heard of this before, it was amazing) Spoliers, speed brakes, and other things I NEER learned about in GA training.

So, please tell me again how does CFIing prepare you fo this? I need to refocus my attention if I am going to do this airline pilot thing. I need to become profieicant in jets and their systems.

AT's will make you lazy and destroy that element of your piloting skill set; but... It is nice to always cross the fence at exactly Vapp will not effort whatsoever :o

While its true that flying a jet in the 121 environment is very different from GA flying, the importance of being a CFI is more mental than stick and rudder. Its about knowing regs ans being very strong with instrument skills and scan because they DO NOT teach you those things at an airline. There are skills that you build as a CFI that will help you that you might not even realize. For example, staying ahead of the airplane. When you're two steps ahead of your instrument student while he/she is flying an approach...that alone will help you tremendously when you transition to a jet because things happen so much faster. If you think you are ready and you meet mins, then hang up your CFI wings and start applying. But please don't discount the experience totally.

CFI'ing is EXTREMELY valuable.

You'll see how other people think and act... and sometimes the response you thought they'd give is not any where close to how they actually react. You'll be called upon to thoroughly think about your student and your student's lesson (to be a good CFI anyway.) Remember, to be a good CFI, you should be able to teach to 1st graders (in my opinion anyway). Dumb it down so that anyone can understand, then once they get the concept you make it more advanced. It's all about advanced thought process.... highly important in a fast moving jet.

I have to ask, did you go to a major flight academy or a small FBO? I ask because the major academies (ATP, Pan Am, etc) typically use a streamlined syllabus that is just enough for you to pass the check-ride. In some cases, they teach you enough just to pass your particular DE's oral exam. It's up to your personal instructor to teach you more than just what the syllabus calls for.

Some small FBO's do this as well, but in my experience, the smaller 'mom-and-pop' FBO's take time to personalize your training and teach you things you otherwise wouldn't learn elsewhere.

As far as reaching your CFI and having never heard of autothrottles, spoilers or speedbrakes... pick up an issue of "Flying" magazine.

Some people might have a few things to say about this thread.

I have been a flight instructor for this past two years. I just recently started flying the Embraer 170. (just finished IOE)

All that I am going to say is that I felt that my two years as a flight instructor was the MOST VALUABLE training experience that I could have ever gotten. There will be time to learn jet aircraft systems when you get to a jet aircraft.

When you go to airline pilot training, they are not teaching you how to fly, they teach you a transition into that aircraft. I have seen many people with a fresh commercial pilots license think that they know everything. If you fall into this catagory, trust me, you don't know anything yet. I am not saying that I do. Now that I am in this jet aircraft, I feel like a fumbling student again. But, I know that with time and experience I will get proficient in this aircraft too. But, I would not think for a second that I could step into this position that I am in now without all the valuable experience that flight instruction gave me.

Just out of curiosity, how many hours do you have at this point?

Oh, dont get me wrong. I am not one of those folks tha tinstruct to build time. I do not like those kinds of instructors. I LOVE teaching. I used to be a school teacher. I mean even if I do become an airline pilot, I will still actively flight instruct. I will never let my certs expire. I was just saying I dont see how it will help you become a better 121 FO. Instructing i a valuable skill that makes you a better pilot. But I just dont see how it makes you a better airline pilot. Even talking about instrument skills. You arent the one shooting the approach. You are coaching someone else. So your skills will deteriate unless you get in a sim or something and manipulate the contraols yourself. Sitting in the right seat and talking someone throough a hold will help your situational awareness and help you plan and stay ahead of the plane but your motor skills arent being improved. But you all bring up some good points.

Going from 0 hours to CFI was a process that took 12 years at many local flying clubs. I was in the Army overseas. I ran out of money for a few years and I have deployed for six months to 18 months tours. So, it was alengthy process but it wasnt at one specific place.

Once again, I have 650 hours.I love instructing. Remember my old post? I gave a scholorship to a youg girl who I am teaching. I volunteer with a youth organization wher I give volunteer ground instruction. I used to teach elementary school and I enjoy teaching very much.

Instruction doesn't prepare you at all for playing FO. What it should be preparing you for is anticipation and command of an aircraft. I used to love when a student would get behind a plane on final. Take a look at the terrain and you'll almost be able to predict it. Why does this matter in a jet? You don't want to get slow in a swept-wing aircraft. Being able to predict and be ahead of the plane is critical when you have a crossing restriction to make, and that 150kt tailwind is getting you there awfully fast. It's going to help when the trend line starts dropping down the PFD, you're sinking, and the engines aren't spooling up fast enough for you, which results in too much power and all of a sudden you gain 20kts on short final. If you can see what's going to happen with your student, let them make mistakes and still be able to save the day before things get bad you'll be able to make the transition much more easily.

Instructing makes you a better pilot. Those skills you gain will only help when you get in the real jet where the learning curve is steep and things suddenly are happening about 5 times faster than what you're familiar with.

Go jump in a complex, high performance aircraft with a relatively low time private pilot if you haven't done that yet. It will be just as eye opening. It's amazing how much "faster" things happen when you're trying to think like two people.

I instructed for two years as well. I'm very happy I did and I don't think I would have survived training if I had gone to an airline after only a couple months of instructing. The learning curve is so steep that I don't I could have handled it while trying to learn how to fly an aircraft and learning what my limitations are.

You hit the nail on the head with the hours issue. Whether you get the minimum flight time to get hired by your preferred airline through flight instruction, the military, part 135 charter, or flying bank checks in the middle of the night doesn't matter. What I think matters is that you get QUALITY flight time and a VARIETY of experiences. Any job that you get flying should prepare you to make the jump into bigger, faster, more complex aircraft. Your college education and maturity level should prepare you for the challenging airline training programs. The rub is that with terribly low minimums at the regional airlines new hire FO's don't have to get that quality and varied experience. The first time they may fly an ILS down to minimums at a busy Class C or B airport in icing may be with 50 unwitting passengers on board. Paying for cheap 152 time flying back and forth between West Podunk and Podunk Falls in order to meet application minimums, however, won't prepare anyone for an airline job.

My boss was talking to me about his lithmus test for qualifying new pilots in command in our organization and I think it can be applied to determining if you are up to the challenge to being an airline pilot. 1) Be able to fly the aircraft (we've got BE20s) single pilot in normal, challening, and emergency situations and bring it home safely. 2) Be able to take control of the aircraft from the co-pilot when they put it into a dangerous situation and save the crew and aircraft from disaster. 3) Be able to teach and mentor young pilots and prepare them to become PICs.

Flying students around that have no idea how to fly and are trying to kill you every time you blink and eventually teaching them how to successfully pilot an aircraft without bending any metal accomplishes the three previous points.

Just because you may know nothing about flying an MD-90 or E-170 or DH8 doesn't mean that you can't jump into an airline with them and learn. That is why airlines have training programs.

Do you think you are a better pilot now than you were 300 hours ago? It's not about making one a better FO, it's about being a better rounded pilot who's seen and done a variety of flying and gotten the crap scared out of him remembering never to let that situation happen again. I think being a CFI and having a single pilot IFR background is a great combo for a future airline FO. You've proven yourself as an instructor and aviator by not killing yourself or allowing someone else to.

A Stan Eval pilot I flew with once, she told me she felt those years of being an instructor pilot and Stan Evil pilot was her way of giving back; a way of securing a safe future for Herk pilots by doing her part. She loved to fly and looked forward to any chance to pass on what she knew because she was aware of the benefits of doing so...esp those that weren't readily visible to her at that moment in time.

I haven't reached PPL yet, but I know from working on airplanes all these years is that you are training your replacements. It's hard not to see yourself in those who are coming up behind you, the same way you did.

I would think teaching others in something you have a passion for would be very fulfilling, in addition to those other intangible benefits you can't see (better pilot in the long run, can teach as well as be taught, an authority in your chosen field).

That's what I would get out of it. That's probably what I will get out of it, more than likely.

HerkFCC

You want flight sims?

This is where I'm headed when I get back to Europe (stationed in Germany) after this stretch here in the desert at OTBH, check it:

www.virtualaviation.co.uk.

Experience whether it comes from CFI'ing, 121, 135 or MIL all has pluses and minuses. The key is that it IS experience in varying situations in different whether etc. They are all different, valid ways of gaining whats necessary to train for these jobs. Nothing but a wet commercial ticket.... I am not so on board with that.

Love your Avatar. Ever been to tallil?

Herk,

Enjoy your sim session! Those who want to do something similar stateside may already have heard of Wayne Phillips' excellent ATOP program.
www.b737.com

i'm agreeing with what everyone else said on here.

One of the greatest things is to enjoy ones work, and if you enjoy teaching and you enjoy flying, the CFI is a terrific job. One of the things i enjoyed most about being a CFI was that my students would inherit my own flying traits, both the good, and the bad...honestly, i enjoyed seeing both in them, but would routinely try to correct the things they picked up from me, that i'd rather them not have.

Another point was made by my sim instructor during my initial training. An airline didn't hire a First Officer....they hired a Captain (atleast that is their hope for you) in training. With experience, they're expecting you to be able to perform the duties of the PIC. The reason an ATP can use his captain experience in renewing his CFI certificates is because the FAA actually expects you to be instructing/mentoring first officers into captains. If you've never instructed a person before, this little "phase" of the job might be a little bit difficult for you to accomplish.

Another big issue is the decision making...it doesn't matter if you're a CFI or a MIL pilot, or a freight dog, etc....this will aid significantly with your ability to make a sound and rational decision as to the best solution to the current situation considering a multitude of variables. Some of this will be learned simply by flying the line at XYZ airlines. But for a person who comes to the table already having a solid foundation in this decision making process, they'll be just that much further ahead of the competition.

CFIing is a great job. Unfortunantly, it doesnt pay the bills. I work at a military flying club and I have one dedicated student. I have a few others that fly every now abd then. SO basicallly I make no money here. Thats why I cant do this full time.

And as far as decision making skills go, I have been using the MDMP(military decision making process) for years. Iwas a Platoon Leader inBosnia and an Executive Officer in Iraq. I have made plenty of decisions in critical situations. So I hope I bring tha to the table.
I just ned to learn this jet stuff. I am thinking about taking a jet transition course to get up to speed on things. I am a hands on person. Ilearn better in a classroom setting as opposed to studying on my own.

Thought. comments anyone?

I think it would be a waste of money. You're not flying a jet yet, so, who cares if you know jet aircraft systems. Learn it when you get a job flying a jet. That's why you have over a month of ground school for an airline, much of which is learning about systems.

Why don't you become a full time CFI at a pretty major school. I see ads that have full time CFI's making 30-40K per year. You will be flying alot and learning even more.

And also, just because of some military decision making process, does not mean that you can make decisions in the air. That will only come with experience.

Purchase "The Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual" and you'll save a few thousand dollars while still learning what you need for ground school. Jet transition courses are more about teaching you to pass a sim ride. Systems aren't going to be as much a focus.

Trust me my friend, none of us can really "afford it" unless their mommy and daddy are wealthy. As an FO, I can say that this is the first time in years that I haven't had at least two jobs. Even still, most of my friends have them and I still pick up some side work from time to time for a little spending cash.

What happens when all that auto "gee whiz" stuff fails? Guess what, your flying a DC-9!

The man speaks truth. And you'll definitely need your core of experience then. Boeing builds airplanes, Douglas builds character.:D

Sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree here my friend...These guys don't fly Airplanes anymore - they let George do all the work :rolleyes:

CFI'ing (even for the short two weeks I did) was a fantastic experience...I think it has the potential to help you become an better Airline Pilot just because you are out there busting your tail in what is most likely your first and only pilot job prior to going to the Airlines. It gives you a bit of time to learn to understand things like the ATC system better, since you're in it every day...other than that, if you've got good people skills, you're right - CFI'ing and 121 are two different animals - they are different skill-sets. The benefits of CFI'ing that relate directly to the 121 environment are really limited to the fact that you're really just flying every day. Don't let anybody tell you different...

Best of luck when you make the jump over, my friend!

That's a scary thought. These RJ guys having to fly an Airplane! Eek...I thought that wasn't safe?!

Th you. Yes, I have that Turbine Pilots handbook with the CD. Its ok, but I still have questions.

ASAS wont even let me interview unless I have had some kind of jet transition course. They told me that. Plus I think it'd be good to give me a leg up.

I am one that believes in pre planning. I want to be ready when I get to the jet training, so any thing I do to prepare mysefl for that would be helpful. If I get to class and have already flown a CRJ sim wouldnt that be more helpful than getting to class and never touched the thing?

Anyway, I really appreciate the advice. Pilts are a good group of folks.

You're right, its not safe to have a 500 hour pilot in a jet

Ok, I will do everyone a favor and sum up what is about to be posted real quick...

Do Not pay for CRJ training. It is a waste of about 7,500 big ones, when you could get the training for free when you get to class. Don't buy a CRJ manual, because you may learn something the wrong way its meant to be portrayed, and then have to unscrew your head, and start over fresh. Plus, don't have your heart set on the CRJ. You may wind up in an ERJ/EMB, ATR, J3100, Saab, BE1900?!

We all suggest some sort of PIC role before you get to the regionals. It will not only make you more compitent, but it will also build your confidence in your ability. Whether it is Instructing, Cargo, Banner Towing, whatever. You need to develoup the ability to make important decisions such as a "go-no go" type decisions. A job like one of the above, indirectly, is training you to be a Captain - think of it that way.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. Just BE SAFE!

Even if you take the transition course, ASA is going to train you to fly the way ASA flies. They won't care what you did before, just that you do things their way. Same is true of Pinnacle, PSA, Skywest, Republic, and anyone else. They will train you to fly their way. I don't believe a jet course is worth the money when I can get hired, study, train, and always have some contacts who can give good advice.

This brings up a question. What will happen when all the new FO's who skipped instructing become captains and have to train the new hires?

This is a good point. Other then being sharp on instrument procedures, steep turns, chandelles, etc., instructing teaches you something that you don't get anywhere else. It teaches you about the psychology of people. I feel, though I'm not a captain yet, that having the instructing experience and seeing all walks of life, it will make that portion of the transition from the left to the right seat, that much easier.

...my 2 cents

Laxrox you've got that right.

The time I've spent instructing has not done a great deal to build physical stick-and-rudder skills BUT I have picked up a great deal of confidenence wrt PIC judgement and procedural knowledge. Not only that but what is instructing other than CRM on a slightly different scale?

Thats where the turboprop pilot comes in to save the day. Johnny Jet Pilot wouldnt be able to figure out that thing.

In short I totally know where you're comming from. After 100's of hours in a 152 I go up for a UPT interview at a KC-135 base. They have a full motion sim. I took the right seat and it kicked my butt. I kept stalling on final! I had no control over airspeeds or anything. I was trimming like crazy and screwing up the cofiguration so bad. I'm sure I left a great impression on them lol. But I know exactly what you mean a Jet compared to GA there is no comparison. If and when I get the "go" I'm going to have to basically start from scratch and learn it that way.

Why not? Its not like he is by himself. Why is it not safe? I mean the Air Force has 300 hour pilots in jets by themselves. SO whats wrong with a 500 hour FO with a 2500 hour Captain next to him?

thanks. here is the thing. i am oldd enough to know my limitations and I do have a good amount of dual given already.

Ok, everyone says dont take a jet transition course because they will teach that to me when I get to class. SO what happens if I fall behind in class? Why would I want the first time I expereince control of a CRJ sim to be in class where I am being evaluated. Why not get some experience flying a jet sim without the pressure of being evaluated so when I get to class I will be very comfortable with my surroundings.

Everyone deosnt make it through training. Some people fall behind because they have never been exposed to the systems or the feel of the equipment. I would never go to a school like ATP because I know I couldnt learn that much information in that short of a time span. So I know Airline tarining is fast paced as well, so since I know my limitiations on picking upon information quickly I know I would need a heads up so when I got to training I would have some idea of what the heck they are talking about. Does that make sense?

N6724G...If you know what it takes for YOU to succeed (or at least go into something important like initial training as confident as possible), and a Jet transition course will do that for you, GO for it friend!

It's your money, waste it any way you want. Attention to detail will take you far in airline flying...proofread your posts!

Thanks for that because I know airline flying is soooo different from any other career that requires attention to detail. I type fast and do not proof read. I am not typing onhere for a jobinterview and you all get the gist of what i am saying. thanks again though.

And seriously thanks for the repiles. I digest all good positive information.l

I love when i read posts like this. After your first few months at an airline, you will have a whole new opinion about your time as a flight instuctor.

No Mesabah, you misunderstood. I love being a flight instructor. I will continue to flight instruct even after I am an airline pilot. I am a member of NAFI. I flight instruct at a youth organization and I am an Instructor pilot in CAP. SO I do not dislike instructing. If instructing paid well, I'd probably do it full time.

I love how everyone gets so mad about grammar on this site. Must be a lot of english majors.