Logging PIC time
 

Can a new Captain (obviously typed in the A/C) log PIC time during IOE?

On the release he is listed as CA, and the check airman/IOE instructor is listed as FO.

Thanks.

Good question:

Unless you already have had a FED observation on that class of aircraft, and IOE complete, your name shouldn't be listed under captain.....

Generally, you are sic until your observation flight, then pic on flights thereafter when designated as such..

That is correct

no, that's not correct. far 61 doesn't say anything about fed rides or ioe or any of that. pilot in command time starts when you are qualified as pilot in command of the aircraft, in this example when you finish your check ride (type ride) in the simulator or aircraft.

the difference is, you're not signing for the airplane until you're done with ioe and/or your fed ride (fed ride doesn't always happen right at the end of ioe). you're logging pic time during ioe, but you're not THE pic. you're not signing for the aircraft. that doesn't matter to the faa, but it does matter to future potential employers, possibly.

some companies only care about pic time that you actually flew when you were the one signing for, and responsible for, the aircraft.

it's just like going back to when you were with an instructor in a complex aircraft. you (normally) already had, let's say, a private certificate, single engine land, so you were qualified in the aircraft as pilot in command. you just didn't have an endorsement for complex aircraft yet. so the instructor was there to get you your endorsement. while he was there, he was signing for the aircraft and was ACTING as pic, but you could still log pic time.

the faa is very clear about the difference between acting as pic and logging pic time. they do not always have to be happening at the same time. the faa couldn't care less about ioe and fed rides, as far as this particular question is concerned.

so keep it separate. is it pic time? sure. but when you put your application in to southwest (for example), do they want all that as pic time? no, they want you to tell them pic time when you were the one acting as pic and signing for the aircraft.

Gosh forbid there's an incident:

Which pilot (the IOE instructor or the pilot receiving training) does the NTSB call the pilot in command?

At Mesaba it's very clearly stated that the IOE "captain" is NOT the PIC of the flight, the check airman IS PIC. The check airman is the one that signs the maintenance log and the release reguardless of how the names are listed on the release. Now if the check airman is not giving IOE (the captain is already qualified and the check airman is simply filling in for a shortage of FO's) then the check airman would not be PIC but SIC instead.

i guess i wasted all my time typing that stuff. oh well. anyway, i'll say it again: there is a difference between logging pic time (his original question, if you'll scroll up) and ACTING as pic. that is to say, being THE pic, the one and only pilot in command, which the faa or the ntsb, in your oh so clever example, would want to talk to, is not always and necessarily the same as someone who is, in fact, logging pic time. the faa is very clear on this, and anyone can look that up with them.

i was just trying to give a correct, and complete, answer to his original question. if he (or you) don't believe me, check with the faa. again, they are very clear on this, because (gasp) this guy was not the first person in history to ask such a question.

During IOE the CA in training-in the left seat-is NOT the PIC. Nor can they log it as such. The PIC is the IOE instructor who signs the release. They are the Final Authority of the aircraft. The CA in training gets to log SIC time. For what it's worth, the CA in training is probably logging about 25-30 hrs before their fed ride, so they are not losing that much of the coveted PIC time. When applying to companies such as JetBlue, they spell out what PIC time is. The PIC is the Final Authority of the aircraft. That is another reason why many companies have you seperate all of your dual from PIC time in your log book.

Clever? Oh, how nice of you. ;)

Lighten up Francis. Forum questions aren't necessarily answered in a single reply post. It's an iterative process. Your posts are a critical part of 'the answer.'

I myself took advantage of the FAA's definition for logging multi-engine pic towards what the commuter airlines wanted a decade back.

Seriously, was it clever?

Hell, if the release listed the New captain as Captain and he signs the release, he should log PIC.