compass......

"I can see what you are saying- a little confusion with multiple lists and such. I do NOT think the "New Delta" will be able to get by with only Comair, Mesaba, and Compass."


Why not? If the Delta / NWA pilots get management to agree on scope that includes ONLY two regionals, this is exactly what would happen. I agree that this probably won't happen but it should. If it doesn't, it would further entice labor issues at the regionals. Now is the perfect time to get on board for the combined Delta / NWA pilots.

Not really sure what flights you were on. But A LOT of the flights I've flown, especially in the last 2 months were full.

I don't know who your "buddy" is, but Mexico is ALWAYS full. Doesn't matter if it's a tourist spot MZT,LTO, or ZLO, nor the other places like Torreon, Zacatecas, or Leon. Full of people and all their bags.

I thought that I had heard even AirNet had gone to a pool. They are a good company too and will always need pilots.

and midwest :eek: what a crazy industry.

Your welcome! flying out of ORD at the moment, headed for CLT in a month. All the best to you guys, and try not to get discouraged, I know it's easier said than done.


Blue Skys!!!

--ditto...I went to Mexico this SUMMER...and the flights was full...there and back.:cool:

Two reasons.

1. Too many contracts that have merger clauses that are strong.

2. I cannot see how the DL/NWA pilot group would sign off on Scope to have more RJ's "officially" on property (wholly owned) than mainline jets without mainline guys/gals flying them.

In the future (the next big industry cycle) maybe, but not in the next 5 years post merger. While I am sure you will argue and anyone would IF they worked for Mesaba, Compass, or Comair. We can all hope "our" regional succeeds but by expanding the regionals more (instead of keeping them limited) all we do is short change our careers into staying at regionals. The next thing we will have is 110 seat RJ's that will get dangled like a carrot. The beauty of a scope clause is it keeps competition and with growth allows for upward movement. When the next "cycle" comes around we will see larger jets that will be above the 70/74 seat scope clauses that will allow for us to all eventually move up to the "majors". Allowing regionals to grow as "wholly owned" will keep you in the regionals.

Example- American Eagle.


Just my thoughts in the van on reduced rest after a divert. night night!

Yep. My last tow trips were ALL pro rate flying, all domestic. Never less than 40 people on EVERY leg.

"Two reasons.

1. Too many contracts that have merger clauses that are strong.

I agree but it is not out of the question to "set the table" now for the not so distant future. Thinking one contract down the road is the norm and might as well add job / pay protection to the top of the list going forward.

2. I cannot see how the DL/NWA pilot group would sign off on Scope to have more RJ's "officially" on property (wholly owned) than mainline jets without mainline guys/gals flying them. "

They wouldn't and shouldn't. Only 200 70-76 seaters are allowed now. UNFORTUNATELY, about 8 airlines fly those 200. Now Anderson is shrinking the herd on his own behalf right now but the combined MEC needs to keep going with it. The only, perceived, loser in doing this is management. No more scope relief, just 2 regionals flying what 8 currently does.

I agree, we don't need more scope / jets at the regionals. However, since they are here, limit management to how they get to use them and have flow through agreements with both.

"In the future (the next big industry cycle) maybe, but not in the next 5 years post merger. "

This CAN happen if the combined MEC goes to bat for the industry like they should.

"While I am sure you will argue and anyone would IF they worked for Mesaba, Compass, or Comair. We can all hope "our" regional succeeds but by expanding the regionals more (instead of keeping them limited) all we do is short change our careers into staying at regionals."

Nope, keep scope the same just way fewer whipsaw opportunities allowed. I have a feeling that this will work itself out over time anyway. 5-8 years ago, investors were climbing all over each other to get in on the regional game. Hell, USAir got out of bankruptcy TWICE because it found people way too eager to throw money out the window. It's a different time now and I don't see the money coming into the industry anymore. Ornstien is smoking something fierce if he thinks he can sell 50 mil. of Mesa stock in this upcoming offering (if the SEC allows it in the first place).

"The next thing we will have is 110 seat RJ's that will get dangled like a carrot. The beauty of a scope clause is it keeps competition and with growth allows for upward movement. When the next "cycle" comes around we will see larger jets that will be above the 70/74 seat scope clauses that will allow for us to all eventually move up to the "majors". Allowing regionals to grow as "wholly owned" will keep you in the regionals."

This will not happen. Legacy's will burn the place before seats are gained on regional aircraft.


Good conversation.

Yes it is, especially RJ flying. It's good for everybody.

hold on big fella, its good as long as it goes back to mainline pilots, not farmed out to a low cost regional, aka MESA, Colgan, etc..............

Obviously, I agree. That would be MORE RJ flying. I said LOSS of RJ flying is good for everyone.

We can all sit here and say what we "think" "should" happen but truth is I don't think management even knows how any decision will turn out. Scope is of the utmost importance to me. To be frank I don't care if 3 regionals or 8 fly for the new delta, I just want to see strong language and opportunity at the major level and an upward movement in the overall "bar" of the industry.

Hey Im a P2P member too :)

Why not? If the Delta / NWA pilots get management to agree on scope that includes ONLY two regionals, this is exactly what would happen. I agree that this probably won't happen but it should. If it doesn't, it would further entice labor issues at the regionals. Now is the perfect time to get on board for the combined Delta / NWA pilots.[/quote]

I have to agree with you here. While I also agree with others who say that we are not going to know for sure until it happens, I have heard at the joint NWA/DAL merger presentation, that DAL fully intends to weed out the regionals down to 2 or 3. Which ones will be one of these 2 or 3 is really anybody's guess. I do not think neither Republic or Skywest's position is as secure as people think it is. Even 76 seat RJs are no longer economically viable when the price of oil is topping $145 a barrel and continues to go up. It is expected the price of oil will top $155 this summer.

furloughman,

You are 100% correct my friend...

dead on! good luck buddy.

I'm glad we are all singing from the same sheet of music regarding scope. Now let's all unify together to realign the industry for the future. First of all, ALPA needs to get their $%&T together. We as pilots cannot become selfish. We have to think long term.

Agreed, but there is a little problem that many suffer from when being in a unIon.

Nuff' said.

So if it came down to 2 or 3 regionals who's to say it is the wholly owned who survive? Actually it would be much cheaper to just get rid of the wholly owned's because there would be no expensive contract to try and get rid of. Plus if the wave of the future really is to have regionals share more of the fuel costs then that would be possible with contracts at a contract carrier. At a wholly owned the major partner is footing the entire fuel bill no matter what.

Just playing devil's advocate here. I think we all want to think we know will happen. But really none of us do.

If you guys want to survive the next 2-3 years ,the long term thinking part would be the way to go because there will be lots of changes coming to this industry and the quote brother you aint see nothin yet comes to mind and as far as ALPA they schould have gotten their act together years ago.:eek:


Back to the drink cart .

If you read my post, then you would have realized basically I was saying the samething. No one knows who will be one of those 2 or 3 regionals left standing. Samething applies to Skywest and Republic. That's my point. Wholly owned or not we are the last ones to find out. It's all pure speculation and everyone needs to ride it out with patience.

Wholly owned airlines are much easier to get performance numbers where they want as they can manipulate the variables more. Delta isn't dumping Mesa or "testing" Pinnacle without cause. There is a boatload more to make on owning your own vs. saving on a low ball contract. Look at Mesa, JO has low ball contract after low ball contract and he can't make it work because of the limitations. He was perfect for the legacy's pre-bankruptcy and is being hung out to dry post. That was a pre-bankruptcy mentality that doesn't work when bankruptcy isn't an option for management to "get theirs" after they already did. Now that the bankruptcy "boom" is over for most, they can't go to the BOD and say, "I'm going to go into bankruptcy and save the company XXX a year when I get to void labor contracts. I just want 15% of those savings." There is more incentive for management to get their money through their stock options (as it was before the bankruptcy "swoon, scandle, thievery (pick your word of choice). The only way they can do that now is show growth, happy labor groups and performance. That's what investors want to see.

IMHO, I would not be surprised to see the airlines that fly different uniforms for different airlines get left behind in the not to distant future. They don't offer enough ROI on the balance sheet for investors that want to see the stock price go up and that's how management that's gone through bankruptcy already will get "paid".

The mainline carriers are getting tired of guaranteeing profits and paying the fuel bills for the regionals. I think the reason you are seeing DAL and NWA with the wholly owned regionals is because that way they can keep the money in house and have the freedom to adjust as necessary instead of getting locked in to contracts with outside subcontractors. The days of the mainline carriers footing the fuel bills are going to quickly come to an end and there arent many regionals that can afford to cover the fuel costs now a days. Just an observation.

Please explain to me how a mainline carrier would not be footing the bill at a wholly owned carrier? They would foot ALL of the bill. However I do think a contract at a contacted carrier can be written to at least SHARE some fuel cost. While no regional can foot the entire bill either, they could relieve some of the pressure.

There are a million ways to spin this in favor of either a wholly owned or a contract carrier. We will just have to see what happens. IMO there are operational costs included with a wholly owned that are not at a contracted carrier. One thing is for certain. At a wholly owned mainline is paying 100% of the cost of everything.

They do pay 100% of the fuel bill but dont have to guarantee profits to a carrier not owned by themselves. Also they have the freedom to adjust the flying as they see fit instead of being restrained by a contract with an outside company. For instance Skywest and Mesa Suing DAL over their contracts.

Media Q&A

Why is Delta and ExpressJet ending their agreement?
Delta and ExpressJet have made this mutual decision because it benefits two airlines with a common goal to reduce operating expenses related to the sharp increase in fuel cost.

How long has ExpressJet operated as a Delta Connection carrier?
ExpressJet began operations as a Delta Connection carrier in June 2007.

How many and what type of aircraft does ExpressJet fly for Delta?
ExpressJet flies 23 145-ERJ, 50-seat aircraft.

How many daily flights and destinations does ExpressJet currently fly for Delta? How many will Delta Connection partners fly after Sept. 1?
ExpressJet flies 100 daily flights to approximately 30 destinations. After Sept. 1, Delta Connection will fly approximately 2500 daily flights to over 230 destinations.

What new routes reductions are included with this announcement?
All routes either originate or terminate in Los Angeles including: Boise, Idaho; Denver, Colorado; Eugene, Oregon; Spokane, Washington; Oakland, California; Portland, Oregon; Phoenix, Arizona; Reno Nevada; Seattle Washington; San Francisco, California; San Jose, California; Sacramento, California and Tulsa, Oklahoma. Total # Departures 31.5 day per day

Are there any current ExpressJet markets being backfilled?
Yes. While the ExpressJet routes originating in Los Angeles are being cancelled, flights originating from Salt Lake City will be replaced with 50-seat regional jets operated by other Delta Connection carriers.

Will there be any interruption in service for flights scheduled to continue beyond Sept. 1?
No. Any service flown by ExpressJet that is scheduled to continue beyond Sept. 1 will be operated by another Delta Connection carrier.

How will customers be impacted by this decision?
We expect minimal impact to customers and, Delta will work to ensure that alternate transportation options are arranged as quickly as possible.

Does this have anything to do with the NWA merger, or the pending Freedom and Pinnacle contract termination announcements?
No. This mutual decision has been made because it benefits two airlines with a common goal to reduce operating expenses related to the sharp increase in fuel cost.

What is Delta’s current situation with Mesa (Freedom) and Pinnacle?
Mesa – We disagree with the court’s decision and have filed an appeal.
Pinnacle - We have notified them of our election to terminate the Delta Connection contract. We’re in discussions to see whether the situation can be resolved through mutual agreement.

Are the ExpressJet changes part of the recently announced 13 percent domestic decrease and 60-70 regional jet reduction?
Yes. But because we have not announced the specific changes in the LAX and SLC markets we will not break them out at this time.

Will any Delta employees’ jobs be impacted by this announcement?
There will be no involuntary reductions in headcount as a result of this announcement. We will continue to review our staffing needs for our operations and allow reductions through normal attrition.

i hate seeing xjet going through all of these troubles. hope they find some1 to fly those planes

Those aircraft are going to CAL.

I am sure you know, but for some that don't they will be replacing some ER's, so its a replacement not an addition tot he aircraft we currently have flying for CAL,


The saddest thing about this whole situation is in the END CAL got exactly what they wanted from us, XJT product at rock bottom price and the best a/c of our fleet after all this will end up right back where they started :(

Other legacies have done it before, CAL FINALLY decided to use the other guy's playbook.

I picked out just this one sentence to save reading time. You do ask a good question before this sentence but the answer takes care of both.

...and they get 100% of profits which is MOST important to their stock price going forward.

Bingo. This is the key answer why DAL is going forward with whittling down to 2 regionals that are wholly owned. Though after the merger, if the furlough becomes unlikely, I was told by several senior NWA CAs that Compass is most likely the best candidate for sale along with Comair. They are saying they are hanging onto Compass because if NWA starts to furlough, it is a job option for NWA furloughed pilots.

:( :(

Yeah, they are going to replace the short jets.

Aren't they still keeping 10 of the 135s? I read that they were removing 29 of 39.

I wonder if Pinnacle will help with any of the flying lost?

thats eagle