He probably meant the airline getting violated by the FAA.

 

Is it just me or does the list of hoops we have to jump through for this ATP program grow longer and more convoluted each day?!

Apparently the Feds have now decided that the provision allowing an expired ATP Written doesn't apply to us. Hope you remember how to do your 727 performance calculations!

 

I agree, it kinda sucks, but the provision was only ever intended to give captain upgrades their ATP all in one checkride; not give an employee their ATP without upgrading. . .

§ 61.39 Prerequisites for practical tests.

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a)(1) and (2) of this section, an applicant for an airline transport pilot certificate or an additional rating to an airline transport certificate may take the practical test for that certificate or rating with an expired knowledge test report, provided that the applicant:

(1) Is employed as a flight crewmember by a certificate holder under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter at the time of the practical test and has satisfactorily accomplished that operator's approved—

(i) Pilot in command aircraft qualification training program that is appropriate to the certificate and rating sought; and

(ii) Qualification training requirements appropriate to the certificate and rating sought

I don't think anyone imagined FO's being required to have ATP's when this reg was written, so I wouldn't be surprised if this reg is re-written in the future. Kind of a tough break for now though . . .

 

"Kinda sucks" would apply if they had announced this a few months ago. But it's a bit of understatement considering the ATP program starts in less than a month and now the guys with summer CQs are going to have to scramble to prep for and take the Written on top of their studies for CQ/Type Ride and jumping through all these other hoops (and presumably fly occasionally between now and then).

I understand the way the reg is written, but considering that they're giving us a full Dash 8 Type in the process, I don't think it'd be a stretch for the Feds to decide this program complies with the spirit of the law (which obviously wasn't written with this sort of situation in mind).

 

This wasn't announced months ago. This reg hasn't changed in over a decade. Again, this is a pain for those of you who were hoping for quicker upgrade that never came, but this also shouldn't be a surprise, as the reg is very clear. The spirit of the law was to give captain upgrades their ATP's all in one checkride, not to give an ATP to anyone who gets a type.

I think you are trying to liken an ATP with a type rating to an "upgrade." Those are two completely different items. Hence the 4 days of training for FO ATP's vs a month of training for upgrades. I still think getting an ATP and type in one day, free of charge, is a pretty good deal. Personally, I am surprised that Piedmont stepped up to the plate and is offering this.

I still agree this is a raw deal if you have to retake your ATP written. Because the ATP's are being required, with no grandfathering, I think the FAA should amend the reg, or subsidize those having to take a second written exam. (for those who completed their written before the ATP Rule was signed into law.)

 

However, the reg doesn't say "upgrade"....
If, as the Training Dept has said, the only thing restricting an ATP'd/Type'd F/O from exercising PIC privileges on the Dash is a limitation on the license requiring the completion of SOE, how is that not a "Pilot in command aircraft qualification"? A type rating is an aircraft specific qualification!

I can see what you're saying, but my point is that both the letter and spirit of the rule are not nearly so clear as you seem to think.

BTW, if the reg hasn't changed in a decade and this was the interpretation all along, why wasn't this posted along with the 250 PIC debacle or any of the other ATP postings? No, it seems clear that the company understood the provision the same as the rest of us did and BWI is just dumping this on us at the last minute (just like they re-interpreted the 250 rule, changed their minds (thankfully!), and now have this requirement that we have to go to a FSDO and get our flight times "certified" in advance of going down to CQ).

This has absolutely nothing to do with being annoyed about not having a quick upgrade and everything to do with an ATP program that starts in less than a month with a constantly-changing set of requirements (especially getting slapped with a Written retake on such short notice).

 

FlyingShawn, we'll have to agree to disagree. The point I was trying to make, was to explain what the rules are and why; not to explain what the FAA should/shouldn't do. This hasn't come up in the other ATP postings because it hasn't affected anyone until now. Also, I'd be curious to know when the last time was that each pilot at our airline cracked their FAR's open. I think its doubtful that most of our pilots have read up on Part 61 lately, let alone Part 121. That is why this has come up on short notice. That, and the fact that I highly doubt the powers that be in our "Training Department" reviewed this reg, and obtained clarification in a timely manner. It's a **** sandwich, but as you said, time is short. I wouldn't count on things being changed anytime soon.

 

Get times certified at a FSDO? How do they certify your time?

 

Beats me. According to Suzzane, the process is to take your logbooks into a FSDO and somehow you'll end up with a printout "certifying" your times as eligible for an ATP.

That was a couple days before they put the info on Form 8060 on the website, so I'm not sure if 8060 replaces what she told me, fulfills it, or if we have to do both. I'm hoping to get some clarification in the near future (this is what I mean about the requirements changing on a daily basis!).

 

What is the deal with the latest info on our ATP program requiring some weird 8060-7 form?

From the PDT training page: "As was mentioned in the first ATP FIL, the FAA has notified us that an ATP-Knowledge Job Aid-Airplane form must be filled out and signed by an FAA Inspector prior to taking the written for the ATP. The job aid is used prior to signing a FAA Form 8060-7."

"“Before an applicant may take the airline transport pilot (ATP) knowledge examination, however, an inspector must establish that the applicant is eligible for the requested certificate in either the airplane or rotorcraft category."

Umm...just wondering, but since when do you need to be eligible for the certificate and have a sign off before taking the ATP written? I have a lot of friends who have taken it without a signoff. Is this something special for our weird program?

Went on the FAA's website and according to their "Knowledge testing authorization requirements matrix": "Acceptable form of authorization for ALL tests listed above (except ACP): NO instructor endorsement or other form of written authorization is required for an initial attempt. (14 CFR §§61.153(f), 63.51, and 65.53)