That's how i see it too

USMCFLYR:

Transition does not equal upgrade.

Unfortunately, you have them mixed up. Any FO to any CA is upgrade training, which would fall under 11a. 11c is a little more complicated, since if I remember correctly, it barely even applies to SKW. SKW, I believe, trains all it's jet captains on all of its jets (since they're all CRJs) and gives you differences trainings. However, let's pretend that they only trained you on the CRJ200, and you would have to bid a CRJ700 slot. The training to the CR7 would be transition training.

To summarize, upgrade training=upgrading to a CA position that you don't already have a class of ATP for.

Transition training=upgrading from one jet to another jet or one turboprop to another turboprop (well, I might stand corrected on this, not sure if they're treated differently). To give another example; if SKW got 170s and a jet CA bidded a 170 CA slot, he/she would go under transition training.

My own unscientific poll revealed that about 50% of captains support it, and about 0% of FO's. I think the policy could even be changed now if the pilot group asked SAPA to push for that.

Some of the older captains did not have up-or-out when they upgraded, and many don't see the need for it.

I think the correct solution is to hire for captains in the first place, and if a few ringers slip through (they will) let 'em stay in the right seat if they want...I suspect many would eventually find another career anyway rather than remain a lifer regional FO :rolleyes:

Tony,

The reason I think you have a case is that while SKW may have the right to fire you after they give you additional training, in your case they elected to terminate you without any additional training. Going from an oral check to a simulator check does not constitute training. I still do not think they followed their own policy.

The other point I have is if they decide they no longer want you working for them, and have the right to dismiss you as an at will employee, it does not give them the right to destroy your career opportunities in the rest of the industry.

I think I understand this.
I understand that you could TRANSITION from an FO on a CRJ to an FO on a EMB-120. In the military I would call TRANSITION from a F-14 to a F/A-18 - transitioning to a different airframe.

Upgrading to me means moving from a FO position to a Captain position.
Again - military analogy - moving from wingman to section lead.

So.......11 (c):
makes it sounds like a FO who is UPGRADING to CAPTAIN and TRANSITIONING to a different airframe would fall under this paragraph.

RJ FO upgrading to CA and transitioning from RJ to EMB-120 would be covered here.
Military analogy - F-14 wingman upgrading to a flight lead right after he has transitioned to the Hornet.

OK - long post - but please point out where I have misunderstood the airline model.

USMCFLYR

[QUOTE]I do see the upgrade training here but it doesn't say anything about transitioning like 11(c) does - which is why I said that if upgrading with no other transition (except differences training for example) I could understand it - though not agree with it. I don't know.

But he moved from one airframe to another airframe - which was upgrading and transitioning. Doesn't his situation fall more in line with 11(c)

Yep - got this I'm pretty sure. very similar.

OR CRJ TO TURBOPROP RIGHT?

USMCFLYR

You can upgrade, or transition, or do both at the same time. Just because you are transitioning does not imply that it is not also an upgrade.

When you go from FO to CA for the FIRST time at SKW, that is your initial upgrade which you cannot fail. Any other training event (except new hire) you can fail and go back to your previous position.

[QUOTE]Agreed.....and he was doing BOTH at the same time so I keyed on
because he was undergoing transition (RJ to EMB) training for a captain [upgrade]....

This is definiley the part that I'm getting stuck on. What is the scenario in 11(c) that isn't covered by the first time going from a FO to CA in the quote above? It certainly sounds like if an FO is going from a EMB to CRJ FO and he fails then he gets to go back to being an EMB FO. Correct?

USMCFLYR

I think this says a lot about SkyWest and what type of place it is.

Union Yes ;)