I think he was pinting out some of the places start their 1900 CA's around 36 an hour which is only about 2-4 more than a second year FO at a larger regional... except you have an s-load more responsibility as a 1900 CA without getting the financial compensation for it. There is no reason that anybody should take on the responsibility of being a part 121 CA for that kind of money.

Thats my point, its retarded.

Obviously you don't know all that much about this industry. Turbine PIC time is pretty good in most people's books. There are some carriers that might prefer JET time but for you to say you will not get far is not very intelligent.

Wow, get a clue. Maybe all of us prop guys (1900, Saab, Bro, Dash) can get on at a real airline one day. We are just putting around in these prop planes bulding time for an RJ FO position.

So Pitts, how do you explain all these prop guys moving on to fly mainline metal if the prop (turbine) PIC will not get you far, in your opinion of course?

He does have a point. The last round of hiring they were taking people with Jet SIC time over folks with PIC in smaller turbine planes. Others were specifying that the time had to be in something over 45,000 pounds.

The only airline that I recall where this was the policy was/is Cathay Pacific. Other than that, can you name another one? PIC time is much more valuable than any type of SIC time, unless maybe you're talking about space shuttle time.

The boatload of jet SIC time that I acquired at Eagle didn't do me, nor any of my buddies, any good in getting interviews at the majors. I'd say that aside from personal contacts, networking, and internal recommendations, PIC time is where it's at.

Delta was hiring this past year with SIC time, as was USAir and JB. One of them had the over 45,000 pound requirement; don't remember which one. Their SIC required time was significantly higher than those with PIC time in over 45,000 pound AC... So, I would agree; PIC is better, but not always.

Many Eaglets at JB with SIC time only, a few at USAir that I know of... but you are correct, networking plays a much larger role than people think.

guys TPIC is TPIC, go ask SouthWest Recruiters and you'll see they seem to have a preference for Turbo-Prop guys.

Its more important who walks your resume in, not whats on it

they have until 11/4 (I believe) to file their cards. if they do, they will be included in the ballot, and people can vote for either one and the union with the majority votes will win.

if they dont file their cards, only ALPA will be on the ballot. this may dissuade some of those diehard IBT guys from voting, and thus if the vote fails AGAIN, any union who wants to try again has to wait ANOTHER year. what I'm saying is if IBT doesnt file this time, they're gonna have to wait another year. that is another 12 months without a contract. 1 more year of BS like street captains being allowed to transition ahead of guys senior to them. I hope those IBT guys think about this before they decide not to vote, if they are truly for representation.

uhm, LOL. what "larger regional" am I going to get hired at right now?

I think you're right that DAL didnt have a PIC requirement, but that doesnt mean they dont value it. Also, DAL is definitely not the one with the 45k lb requirement... there were 2 or 3 CAs from colgan who went over there this past spring and they had only saab time.

I heard it was Jetblue that had the weight requirement but did not specify whether it was jet or prop. A few guys that had interview came to the 400 because they said the saab did not meet the requirement. I do not know the weight they were looking for.

Thats my plan though, get 1000 TPIC in the Q400 so I can get on with Comair or someone and start building some SIC jet time.

I can agree with this statement with a personal story. I had a yearly physical (not a medical or even an AME doc) where they did blood work, my first EKG, a true "checkup" and they found something "odd" with my EKG. I was currently flying 121 and was told I needed to see a specialist and report this on my next medical. I called ALPA aeromedical and within an hour I had a doc from Denver calling me to discuss my situation. They lined me up with a heart specialist within my insurance company who worked with pilots (lots of FDX guys in MEM that see this guy). When I showed up for the specialist appt the doc had already received all the documents the FAA would need and a list of required tests. I was put through the treadmill and heart echo (ultrasound of the heart- cool piece of machinery!) and was told I am "healthy as a horse, just a little weird from the factory". I was given the required documents I would need for my next medical and was even called by the Denver doc a few days later asking if I had any other questions and informing me what I needed to tell the AME. If I had not had ALPA to take care of all of this I would have been DENIED my medical, had to do all the tests, and had a waiting period on my medical. I figure it saved me my job. Total cost? $0 extra for aeromedical, $10 copay for the specialist. I received the bill from insurance showing what they paid and it was over $5K. So without aeromedical I would have been unable to fly (or get paid) and most likely would have had to fork over thousands to get my medical back. I am not a cheerleader here, but the resources of your 2% reach far and wide. Also, the AME told me that since all the paperwork was already submitted before my medical exam and I saw a "preferred FAA doc" I wouldn't have to do anything special for medicals, if I hadn't I most likely needed to get an EKG every year, or even 6 months even though I was only 22. Heck I wasn't even off of my first year yet so I wasn't even paying dues yet.

Thank you. We are trying, and eventually we will.

The IBT folks I know realise any union is better than no union.

Dude, I'm honestly not sure which planet you're living on, but PIC turbine is exactly THAT. The ONLY company I've ever heard of that doesn't accept prop time is Emirates ... and sure that's a great company if you want to go overseas. But pilots from Colgan have gone to EVERY major airline in the Country ... so don't even try to give us that BS... and what regional airline out there is 2nd year FO pay higher than $41.50?!?! Please, tell me

I think since we got 70% of the pilot group to send in cards this time, we have a much better chance of getting the vote to pass ... last year, it was a bit rushed I think. If it doesn't pass this time ... we deserve to be screwed over ... over and over again

*** ???? SWA, Air Tran, and CAL are full of BE1900 Captains that were hired with zero jet time.... PIC turbine is PIC turbine at most of the carriers. The people I hear making that distinction most of the time are the 300 hr right seat wonders that think everything is jet time.. or some HR person who knows very little about aviation. True.. jet time is quality time.. but it's not the only time. When I've sat on hiring boards and done sim checks, I've actually found the turbo-prop guys to have a little better air sense and better monkey skills. Fight for that PIC time..

I don't know if someone said this already, I didn't get to read all the posts. The way I understood things was displaced pilots would be retrained for available positions before pilots that have not been displaced. It was suposed to be the same for those displaced out of their crew bases, although it didn't seem to work that way.

True Delta dropped their PIC time officially, but how many FOs without it do you know of that got hired, unless they REALLY knew someone? Some were hired, but not nearly as many as those that had their resumes thrown out.
As for JetBlue, yes some people went there, but only after they too dropped the PIC requirement, which happened to coincide with the whole situation over there looking a lot less rosy, in order to attract applicants.

End of the day, TPIC time trumps any type of SIC time.


Just remind them to vote, regardless. Everyone that chooses not to vote at all is the same as voting against ALL union options.

And RJ's won't satisfy the Emirates requirement either. It used to, but since the deluge of applications began in earnest, they now say they will only consider jet time experience of 737 or equivalent and larger.

supply and demand, TPIC is TPIC time, however if they are flooded with JET PIC guys they will want Heavier JET PIC etc.........

I would rather have 200HRS of SAAB PIC then 3,000hrs of JET SIC, but thats just me

I agree it's all the same to most if not all companies in the US, stop this Jet vs Turbo bullsh!t.

Now overseas?!?!? That's a different story.

Well, I'd add in the past when everyone was hiring sure... Now that most airlines are furloughing I'm not sure if turboprop means as much as jet but who knows... and I was all turboprop guy before think I'm biased against turbine PIC time... Supply & demand - lot's of jet pic supply right now....

I respectfully have to disagree with you, the few that are hiring (SWA mostly) do not discriminate based on type. Being a Jetjockey myself, I don't think I have an advantage over anyone flying a TP. Turbine PIC is turbine PIC.

Agreed ... with the exception of Emirates, and maybe one or two other carriers out there overseas ... PIC is PIC, prop or not

Exactly.

You may have some airline personel who value jet over prop because they fly jets. And at another airline they may value prop pic over jet pic because lets face it, prop guys have to work a little harder and deal with more obstacles like weather. It is silly to say an advantage on either side.

Bottom line is who you know. As long as you meet the mins it comes down to your letter of recs and who walked your application in.

It is who you know.

Sadly enough, if we learned anything from the last round of hirings at CAL and DAL, is that it's definitely who you know!!!

Folks, we turboprop folks need to accept it: prop time will always play second fiddle to jet time.....

as long as the person interviewing has never touched a condition lever.:rolleyes:

And a 4 year degree is always better than a 2 and a Masters is best.
And 3 letters of rec is always better than 1
And someone walking in your application is better than not.
And 2 type ratings is better than 1.

Get the point.

There are sooooo many variables in getting hired at a major/legacy carrier. To say it boils down to someone with 1000 T-Prop PIC vs. someone with 1000 Jet Pic is a ridiculous argument. It has nothing to do with "playing second fiddle," but one piece in the entire puzzle.

...condition lever?...what's that?! ;)

In my opinion...props will always prevail. Real pilots fly t-props! Us prop guys/gals have better war stories anyway...'nuff said!

Lax

FLAME ON!!!

ummm, it was meant as a joke/editorial statement

kinda like when people who never:
instructed, hauled boxes, lifted jumpers, towed banners, etc. say, "That stuff ins't nearly as good as my JET sic time"

As funny as it is going back and reading this post to find what it began as to what it has become ... I'm going to take a crack at resurrecting the original topic ...

Colgan just posted a memo answering the burning question of why so many of our first officers are not upgrading, and rather the junior Beech street captains are able to transition to captain on the Saab ... for FINANCIAL purposes only ... they were certain that if they downgraded those street captains to FOs on the Saab they would mostly all resign ... creating drastically increased training costs.

So I guess that whole "we are taking pilots by SENIORITY order, and that includes street captains" thing doesn't apply here ... just fantastic news for the FOs that have plenty of seniority and time to upgrade, yet cannot because of the bottom of the barrel street captains that need to transition to a captain slot so we don't lose them and create more training costs...

On the bright side though ... "we are in talks with ALL of our code share partners of operating our Saabs and Qs out of several different cities ... It is confirmed that we will be getting 15 Next Gen Qs beginning in 2010 ... so with these two situations comes room for more upgrades and more growth ... I can count on one hand the number of regional airlines growing right now ... keep up the hard work and understand that this decision did not come lightly, and we understand the frustration many of you are feeling currently ... fly safe"

... I love memos ...

I'm pretty sure if we had ALPA this would never have happened ... then again, from the other side of the blocks, I'd rather be trying to keep us afloat as well with just about every regional airline furloughing right now ... This is one situation where I would NOT want to be in management's shoes

Let the venting/*****ing/cursing begin!!

Dude...I would love to be in management's shoes right now...if they sink PNCL Corp, they still have plenty of golden parachute money to last a lifetime...we don't....

Hearing about the crap you guys are having to put up with reminds me that no matter how much scheduling and mgmt still try to screw with us at 9E, it would be way worse if we didn't have ALPA...

When is the voting period for your all's decision?

Very soon ... We got the word about 2 weeks ago saying they filed to represent us ... so I'm hoping it will all be said and done before the end of Dec!!

u guys are funny. dont tell me u have nothing better to do than talk trash in a forum. but honestly.....i have nothing better todo than talk trasn in a forum. :D live for the moment change what u can accept what you cant and remember that attitude (as well as confidence) is EVERYTHIING. but im sure you guys already know that u know with being bored enough to talk trash on a forum :)

if you had ALPA what wouldn't have happened? getting more airplanes or the out of seniority upgrades?

LOL, well, I don't think ALPA has one bit of say as to whether company purchases more aircraft ... that would be a little ridiculous ... I said that in regards to the out of seniority transitions/upgrades

If you Colgan guys just voted in ALPA the first time then you would not be screwed thank all of your union busting brothers. The least you can do to them is slash there tires and put there cars on the roof. It won't fix your upgrade situation or your really crappy below industry standard pay that brings all of us at Horizon down when it comes to getting a better contract. But it might make you feal better flame on Bit2hes

Can everyone just focus on the fact that the company submitted the list of eligible voters to the NMB today (six minutes before the deadline)! And that a vote will be scheduled soon.

There are also going to be a lot of events coming up.......

www.alpa.org/colgan