Poor us (ASA)
 

So here's an airline with a surplus of pilots mostly because of the ATR fleet going away. ASA could obviously use more airplanes of some sort, don't say ASA doesn't deserve it. Performance is up substancially from a short time ago. Delta has 900's to assign and the rumor is they give them to an airline who isn't even flying delta colored airplanes yet that is hiring because they think they're getting these planes. Sounds like ASA is going downhill bigtime.

Makes no sense to me.

Discuss...

I don't think it's a rumor anymore...

Don't make this so difficult. It's simply post bankruptcy economics where they need, desire, want, etc. as much profit in house as possible.

Just remember, "deserve" has nothing to do with it as all pilots deserve better. It's simply a solid business decision that aids one group at the expense of others like every other managerial decision in this industry.

The "Good Karma" in this crazy circle of life will come knocking on ASA's door eventually at the expense of someone else.

I concur. ASA has the pilots to operate the planes now. They are experienced and would have good performance (out of ATL, no less). They have the MX for it. I think "deserve" doesn't say enough; I can't really see a reason why they shouldn't have them (except that the last offer included taking 2 -200s away for every -900. That's no good.)

doesn't Delta own those 900s? My guess is that they would want them flown by a wholly owned being that they own the aircraft.

I would agree on principle but really all that matters is that Delta makes money. Wholly owned or not, whoever does the best should get it. Then Delta doesn't end up fighting in court (and subsequently spending money) after contract specs are not met. If the aircraft are operated properly in the first place that never happens...

Purely my opinion. I don't claim to know the whole picture, nor do I intend to try to find out what it is. I think my head would explode.

it makes me sick to my stomach to hear "wholly owned subsidiary" from the newbies. ugh. i hate to see asa miss out on any flying. i have always had a HUGE amount of respect for all you guys. i always thought of asa and comair as the "good ol' boys" of aviation. if the day ever comes that i'm in charge i would be more than happy to burn 'em all down and hook you guys at asa up (and of course my old stomping ground comair.) all the things we both fought for so many years is just getting killed.

I talked to one of our check airmen, and he did say we were offered the 900's, but it would involve nearly 200 pilots getting furloughed. So our CEOs said no to it. What sucks is that other people on the ground are losing their jobs. Talk about a morale buster.

I hear ya man. However, the way I see it is that it isn't like a pilot losing their job where they just give you the "ole boot". I could totally be wrong but the way I understand it is that most of these jobs are people that could have been retired for years now. As well as they will be given retirement packages. Most of the jobs that will be eliminated are for the most part redundant positions. Then again some people might be so ignorant to say that having 2 pilots in the the airplane is redundant.

ASA guys if any one deserve the extra 900s flotting around you guys do... But welcome to the XJ rumor station.... I have been at 9E for 1.5 years(not long) but any and alll rumors have XJ always coming out on top!!! Good Luck I think we need it more!!!!

sorry,,, not more than any one else(pilot)... we all need something....IT WILL BE A BUMPY RODE.....

Not "Kharma" it's karma...and I only said that because I want some good karma.

Kinda makes all the hard work everyone has done to make ASA run on time seem in vain.:(

Thats life at a regional.

We are also the second most expensive carrier (operating costs) in The New Delta portfolio. Number one is Comair. My theory as to why is that we are still burdened with the top heavy management structure Leo Mullin's Delta left us with and Comair still has. We still have about 150 VPs and Directors with very few responsibilities. Adding to this is that our average seniority is about 8 years, and goes as high as 25. Comair is also very senior. This tilts crew pay toward the upper ranges of the pay scale. Someone at PCL and XJ feel free to comment, but I believe your average seniority is much, much lower... around 3-4 years?

Until this changes, we will NOT be awarded new flying.

Here is the XJ APPROXIMATE breakdown.

1-400 between 27 and 7 years

400-600 7 - 1.5 years

600 - 1150 1.5 - new

I agree John, list longevity has a LOT to do with associated costs.

With all due respect, a few months of good numbers and now you guys think you are owed something? You can't be serious. Your guys sense of entitlement is unbelievable sometimes.

P.S. I'll save you the trouble of digging through my post history, former TSA current RAH.

I don't have the exact numbers for PNCL but I am in the 65% (percentile) as far as seniority and have been here 2 years.

:D Whats unbelievable is the fact that you feel like you can throw any kind of stone at anybody in this industry.

Give me a break... especially Deltamd90 from PCL, quit the melodrama. Everyone knows that the mother ship picks and regional partner based on cost and operating metrics. Bottom line is that Mesaba has a great cost structure and very good performance. We're ending October with about 95% A14 and roughly 99% completion factor. We're also cheap because we were dragged through bankruptcy and as a company absolutely streamlined and made even more efficient than we were before Ch11.

A little history for you all -

We are well aware of the whipsaw game, its almost like NWA invented it! From 1996-2000 Mesaba grew like crazy and Express I and II (now Pinnacle) shrank. They operated in MSP and MEM and Mesaba while growing took over and had exclusive operations for NWA in MSP and DTW. Express was relegated to MEM with a bunch of saabs and jet streams. Oh, they were in contract negotiations. Curiously, around 2000 NWA ordered CRJs and awarded them to Express. Who started contract negotiations next? Mesaba.

Between 2001-2007 as Express took delivery of hundreds of CRJs, changed their name, had an IPO, showed up in MSP and DTW, had high profile accidents and famous staffing and operational debacles. All the while Mesaba slowly shrunk, furloughed pilots multiple times, had very long and drawn out contentious contract negotiations that went past the 30 day cooling off period into a virtual strike and did it all safely and ethically. A year later we got awarded CRJs only to take 2 of them because NWA entered Ch11 and we followed a month later. More furloughs followed, our entire Avro fleet was parked along with more than a dozen saabs. To add insult to injury one of our TWO CRJs were transferred over to Compass to keep their certificate alive. In the beginning of 2007 we had 49 saabs and 1 CRJ.

In 2007 we emerged from Ch11 as a subsidiary of NWA and started the rebuilding process. We had over 200 pilots quit in 1.5 years and 220 on furlough. Only 60 were recalled. You do the math. Between April of 2007 and today we've over doubled our fleet and over doubled our seniority list. That's why we're cheap. We also run a good airline.

Just a little history for those who weren't aware or to those who are new to the business. Yes, it was absolutely hard to watch Pinnacle grow out of control, make the news on multiple occasions, bend airplanes and at the same time my company shrink, wonder if I still had a job and see the darkest days in bankruptcy. I get it. But at some point you have to realize that it's not all about the pilots, it's not personal and it's just business. As I said, the mother ship will pick those who are cost effective and operate well. If it were based on emotion and deserving qualities in our own minds we'd all be king of the hill.

We have the painful history and brutal scars to show you if you want to know why we're in the position we're in today. We are a good pilot group from a good company with good maintenance, safety culture, facilities, training, equipment and company culture. That's not ignoring the days of the past, but it is reality. We're not the enemy, so stop acting like we've killed your cat just to get to fly with mother D.

But that doesn't make it any less true. And I am used to having rocks thrown at me, every once in a while you have to throw one back. ;)

bored your post was good. the only thing that bugged me about it was saying we were "bending planes". everyone knows about the 2 guys and the ferry flight. but sliding off a runway in a snowstorm isn't exactly bending planes. it happens to the best of the airlines. all you have to do is go to National Transportation Safety Board and you will see mesaba has had their fair share of "mishaps", just like every airline out there. the problem most people have with mesaba right now is the smug attitude. i posted this on another thread so i will post it here too. i think it is a joke to be in the memphis airport and see mesaba fo's with their eppaulets on upside down to show that they fly the 900. what is up with that. are they cooler than their fellow pilots who fly the saab? i just think all the new guys going over hink that they have chosen the best regional out there and are better than everyone else. they are giving your pilot group the bad name it is getting, and the backlash from other pilot groups.

Bending airplanes is just fact, sorry. If the truth hurts, that's something you have to deal with. This is not going to be a referendum on who is safe. Remember the MKE accident? HIB? TVC was just a bad situation and it's too bad that CA had to take the fall. We all know what TVC is like in the winter. Mesaba for the record, with the pilots at the control have never "bent" an airplane. We've had incidents, like every other airline like blown tires, engine failures, hydraulic issues, flap issues etc.. We've been lucky, but luck doesn't keep you safe all by itself.

As for the 900 FOs... that I know for a fact is not common practice and was probably a one off event that sparked this whole urban legend. Nobody said we're perfect at Mesaba, but come on, I'm not going to be sorry for my companies good fortune at this time. I've been around long enough in the dark days to appreciate what's going on today. It's unfortunate that a few idiots at every pilot group spoil it for the rest of us.

I think its a joke the be in the Memphis airport and get dirty looks from all the 9E pilots walking through the terminal. What is ya'lls problem? I'm glad I don't use NWA to commute anymore...

hmmm when did this turn into a Mesaba VS ASA fight... Well, we will all see what happends in the DCI wars next year. From the last press release 8 of us will stand at the end. I personally think both ASA and Mesaba will be around still.

actually it goes both ways......but don't worry theres just as many 9e pilots that give other 9e pilots the cold shoulder so don't get your feelings hurt....

Daniel - it turned into a Mesaba vs. ASA thread when the OP started lamenting about how ASA should be growing, with the new Delta and not Mesaba.

What I really don't understand is why The New Delta feels the need to reshuffle the deck in DCI flying. Why can't everyone keep their current territory and routes instead of mixing everyone around?

The obvious answer, of course, is that ASA still has a death grip on ATL (still the biggest hub) and The New Delta doesn't like that. So they are taking action to whittle ASA down, despite the fact that we have worked very hard for them over the last two years to impress.

This is why ASA pilots are developing a chip on our shoulders. We feel like the only reward we get is more uncertainty and loss of flying. We are being kicked in the nuts at every turn.

We know it's not the pilots of PCL and XJ at fault, but it's still hard to see pilots in the crew lounges, concourses, and web boards bragging about their growth at our expense when we've worked so hard with no reward. Again, hence the resentment.

John - join the club. Most of us have been in your shoes. You've been at ASA long enough to know not to take it personally, as hard as it is. Nobody said these XJ operated 900s will be flown in ATL. It's likely these will be based in our current bases. Until we know for sure, everyone can stop freaking out about how XJ is coming to ATL. Oh and by the way - nobody is bragging from XJ. Forgive us for finally being on the GOOD side of the industry and finally getting back to our pre 9/11 size.

Great, another thread telling the world how great XJ is and how they are going to be their new stepdaddys regional superpower! What a joke!!!

John,

Be careful with the emotions. I have yet to see one ounce of what could be considered "bragadocious". All we have seen is XJ employees stating current news to let others know only to be met with accusations of lying, creating false rumors, borderline theft and highly intense jealousy (the latter being understandable but still not appropriate).

Delta is not in the business of being benevolent and their decisions will only be in support of their needs, not labors'.

i dont see a reason to be ****ed off at mesaba pilots. You cant take business personally. If we are downsized, we should be mad at no one except delta because they are the ones dealing the cards out and screwing us when we have not done anything recently to warrant losing flying. More important than bashing other carriers pilots is when do we think we will furlough, if at all?

Everyone... I have friends at Mesaba and myself at ASA.
On the ASA side, even if we don't get new planes or whatever ATLEAST we have a job. 900s right now would cause us to loose planes (200s) then we need LESS crew and that means we may have to let ppl go. So it may not be such a bad thing that we don't get these 900s. Wait till more CAPTs move on and ASA not hire. When our pilot pool shrinks a little then giving up planes for 900s maybe worth wild. ASA managment has done a lot to make sure I still have a job. I am well within range to get the big F and yet I am still here.
Mesaba, they have a small fleet so an increase in planes for them is also well deserved. So they become a large 900 fleet big deal, they are in position for it because they do not have to give up any or many planes for them and they are not FAT on pilots. Those 900s was flying for DCI already so it isn't like they ADDED more planes and left the total DCI line numbers the same. (if you get what I mean)
One can say that us not getting these planes may lead to lines taken away but we don't know that right now. Heck during the summer we had almost too many lines to A/C ratio. The one thing I do admit is that we CAN use a few extra planes due to the ATR going away.

If the numbers work the way they do right now and everyone has a job so be it. Next yr is gonna be the yr of DCI WARS. As far as the last press release said about 8 of us will stand, why not just focus on that and when the ones that fall go, the planes and the lines will be divided among the standing. All that matters is that US pilots have a job. If we let our motivation go and our performance drop we will lose. (this goes for ALL DCI carriers)

I have a feeling Imma get my butt chewed off by some of you now.... haha

Nice post...........and no I'M not going to chew you out. You hit some good points but I think it is totally beyond that. Here at ASA you have a lot of junior guys that want to fly a bigger airplane (e.g. CR9), and a lot of senior guys that have been here for many years and have seen their paycheck go down the crapper because of a loss in overall flying. So I think it's mostly just a few guys at ASA rooting for the 900's and the rest could care less. All we want to see is a little more respect for what we have done here at ASA to turn things around and really master ATL as a base of ops. You can give whomever all the 900's in the world but at ASA all we have seen in the past 6 or so months is a steady decrease in the amount of flying we do. And it's not like they are just removing these "unprofitable" routes. Someone else is doing them right out of our backyard.

Just two years ago I remember flying some pretty fun legs and overnighters such as Mexico, Dallas, Turks, Cancun, Belize, Cozumel, etc. Now someone else is doing all that flying. Seems like all we do is Montreal, Jackson MS, Ackron OH, Montreal and Jackson MS.

You had mentioned that you were fairly new so you may not have seen the decline in the amount of flying as well as the quality in the past 2 years.

I have no blame for pilots of other airlines and I'm sure alot of guys feel the sameway even though it comes across like we do. It's more of a combination of Big D, Managment of all the regionals, Unions, shareholders, and the new wave of 200 hour wonderpilots.

I hate to tell you this, but I have lots of flies on the wall in the GO and all my flies are telling me the furloughable pilots will be furloughed in January or February unless something changes. You may feel differently about this issue, and perhaps even agree wit us come March.

As the guy above said, we literally used to fly coast to coast at ASA. You could fly a 4 day trip and see two oceans, Canada, and the Gulf of Mexico. Now all we see is Des Moines, Fayetteville, and Omaha. All the old routes we used to so have not been dropped... they are being done by other carriers. It is aggravating

Don't you guys at ASA realize that you own NO flying? It is all mother Ds flying and she decided who goes where and on what gage of equipment. I stopped taking route changes between XJ, PCL, NWA and CP personally a long time ago. I just show up and fly to wherever big red tells me to fly to. I can't control it, therefore I waste no more energy in toiling over the monthly changes. Sure, I'd love to fly to more exotic destinations, but I know my airplanes place in the network.

Really? You're kidding me. I didn't know we don't own the flying.

That's such a lame argument. Usually the ones on the receiving end are the ones who bring that argument. Real easy to say when you are the one growing.

Now for your reading and comprehension skills, I never said we "owned" anything. I said they are replacing us on routes we used to do. I should have added with their SJS pilots, and inferior contracts. Enjoy our "exotic" destinations in the year to come as we continue to shrink because we cost more to operate, even though we put out a higher quality product.

Jeez dude, you're as overly sensitive here as you are on flightinfo. I never quoted you as saying OWNED, so don't take offense to it. The whole point is that Delta changes things all the time, so does NWA even when you're NOT growing. The point remains the same - you can't take it personally. People waste too much energy in worrying about the stuff they can't control, like the routes they used to fly.

Amen to that.

delta talks out of both sides of their mouth. They love to say we want regional carriers that give out a quality experience for passengers and are on time with few customer complaints. Yet new flying and already operated routes are being continually pushed over to companies with lower operating costs and bad contracts. You get what you pay for. Delta has not been an airline of their word since they promised Pan Am money to keep them as a separate carrier, only to pull the rug out from under them and take their routes and airplanes.

Elaborate? My sources are telling me opposite. Apparently its too late to furlough in terms of saving money. If we were going to furlough it would have been this fall.