Airfix, Im glad there are still pilots like you in the industry. People with your logic and knowledge are hard to come by these days.

I'm curious where do paxhauler, the Duke and Sniper stand on this 1. They generally have very good posts.

Oh I'm scare of sniper!!!! haha

Dash - those are all excellent points. Points that I would have argued here last week. BUT I have thought about it, and thought about it, and then thought about it some more. In the grand scheme of things, it is far too important for our success to throw in the towel now. I don't think we can do much better right away. I don't think we'll have another TA for a long time. But at least whenever we do have one, it won't be subpar -- and they will know we expect MORE. I'm not expecting a million dollars a year. I'm expecting some respect. NO JA's, trip and duty rigs would be nice. Captain pay increases, block or better and line guarantee not tied to PBS. I want the PBS language changed so I'm not so fearful of what the company might do with it. All those things plus more. The fact that none of those things were in there tells me the company doesn't respect us, and our voice isn't being heard loud enough. Perhaps when we vote this down, the company will start listening a little bit more.

Jan/Feb 08 when I was making decisions was a different world than we are now living in. With hindsight, I still feel comfortable with the decisons that I have made.

One of the reasons why I started this discussion was so that I could learn more, and be even better informed the next time we have a TA to vote on; one that I am eligible to vote on.

You have raised good points and expressed them well. After weighing everything, you advocate a "no" vote. I cannot say you are wrong, I just have reached a different conclusion. Thanks for taking the time to express your thoughts.

I too would like to see us all do better. We each are just going to evaluate what we think is possible and reasonable to achieve at the current time.

I will not say that after putting this much thought into it, you are wrong to reach the conclusion that a "no" vote is required. Each of us weighs things a little differently and exercises the right to vote. I cannot vote as an apprentice member. Perhaps there is wisdom in requiring some experience at the company before someone is allowed to vote on this important matter.

I respect the opinions of the MAG pilots whose experiences are different and maybe often harsher than mine. I understand why many are choosing to reject this TA. However, I stand by my opinion that the TA is enough of an improvement in the current chaotic state of the industry and gives us a foundation to build an even better agreement in two years time.

What makes you think JO will do that two years from now? They haven't done it the last almost decade, especially when they tripled business after 911. Mesa made so much money off the slave labor contract for all that time and never actually offered any improvement for the hard work of the employees. I'm sure you know what kind of management you have by now. The fact that they dragged and delayed this TA for more than a year and now that the company is in trouble, they practically beg for a yes vote. It's a slap in the face. No koolaid here.

It's a No for me.

-The $.50 cent raise for F/O's in 2010 is a slap in the face.
-PBS will do nothing but make the junior guys lives worse. I luck out most of the time and get a few of the days I want off. Example: the last 2 Thanksgivings. This is because senior guys will take a "good line" with 13 days off that works Thanksgiving and has weekends off. With PBS, the senior guys will pref Turkey day (and x-mas) off, as well as some weekends. In essence, they will get "dream lines" created for them, leaving all of the holiday and weekend flying to the bottom 60% of the list. With the lines of flying we currently have, the poop is spread across the entire pilot group a little more evenly. Call me selfish, but I was junior once, and still am not quite halfway up the list.
-Block or better is great, but the union is making us feel like we hit a home run by getting it in the contract. I'm not impressed since we should have had that years ago.
-I don't like the provisions for payment when you are "reassigned improperly." How about some language about staffing the airline properly, and outlawing improper assignments.
-All of the trip trade, schedule adjustment tid-bits depend on proper reserve staffing. We haven't had proper reserve staffing here in nearly a decade. I don't see that changing since management would rather furlough extra guys rather than have reserves not flying.

Progress, yes. But not anywhere close to enough.

So what is plan B? We vote down the contract. Then what. I overheard an ALPA guy in the crew room saying that we will picket and hand out flyers. The company will definitely cave and give us everything we want then right?(Sarcasm) I have heard others say we need a "professionally written" contract which I could not agree more with. What we need is a contract lawyer that knows how to write an air-tight contract. Unfortunately, even if we send the contract back 5 times the same people who wrote the first contract will write the fifth. I don't like the language in the contract and I agree that it is full of spots where intent is not clearly defined and leaves it wide open for the company to meddle much like our current contract. I think that both contracts have that in common. The new contract has many improvements that have already been discussed. How long will it take to negotiate again and come up with a new TA? Probably at least 22 months which is the amount of time until this new TA is renegotiated if we approve it. I am not in love with the new TA, but I REALLY don't like the current one. I am obviously leaning yes but I am still up for being educated on why I should vote no. The only two things I keep hearing is we don't trust the company with PBS and the language is soft in the contract. Anything else I missed?

In two years you will have to wait another two years to get another two years....You are just spinning your wheels.

Your wages are not going to put Mesa out of business. J.O. willl do that on his own. So why don't you just vote NO and negotiate a better deal? So what if it takes another two years. Think Mesa will be around for that long?

You need to vote NO to get paid what you are worth. The TA does not pay you what you are worth. What you are worth may not be what is currently industry standard. It is likely more that the current industry standard.

We are professional pilots with 50+ peoples lives in our hands. Firstly we need to figure out what SHOULD we be getting paid for our level of expertise and our responsibilities. Perhaps this should be compared to the salaries of Accountants, Engineers, Doctors and Attorneys who mostly don't have the instantanous decision making responsibility for peoples lives but arguably spend more time training than pilots.

What we should get paid is independent of other regional carriers, their contract and their salaries. This net worth should be what all regional carrier pilots strive to negotiate for, which I believe is more than the current industry standard.

Next we need to figure out what realisitically we can negotiate. This includes analysis of the companies current financial situation, our past negotiation concessions, knowledge of how the company operates, other pilot contracts and analysis where our company plans to be in the short, mid and long term.

Having a realistic outlook does not mean making concessions on our goals. We all know that our pilot contract has not put Mesa into the current financial situation therefore we should not conceed unless absolutely necessary. I don't see it as being absolutley necessary to conceed our worth now. I'd be happy to work under the current contract for a few more years in order to get closer to our worth. This will not only help Mesa but all other regional carriers

Let me preceed what I am about to say by saying that I have the utmost respect for the work our negotiating committee has done. They have given up their own personal time to fight for all Mesa pilots and I'm sure it has been a challenge not only for the committtee but for their families as well. However it is my gut feel that because of our company's current financial situation, the negotiating committee went into negotiations thinking that they would work on only a few key items (top few from pilot polls). This was then formed into or hidden behind the strategy of get a little now and then go for more in 2 years. It is this strategy I disagree with. Two years is a long time. Pay us what we are worth and give us working conditions suitable to our lifestyle NOW, not in two years.

Not trusting the company with PBS and the soft contratual language should be more than enough to vote no. I have a philosophy developed from reviewing contracts in my past 15 year career. That philosophy is never to sign anything until you are 100% sure you would be happy to abide by the contract as viewed and interpreted by the other party to their advantage.

ALPA tells us that there are many new people in management now that change has come and that we can trust the 'NEW' management. If we can trust management and both they and ALPA agree on the intent of the TA then it should be really easy to adjust the language in the contract to reflect the intent. I have read the TA letter of clarification and while it does clarify some items it does not clarify enough.

It clarifies pro rated days off wrt sick time.
It clarifies cancellation pay wrt completion factor
It clarifies automated check in
It clarifies footprint

It does not clarify improper reassignments
It does not clarify the definition of sufficient reserve coverage
It does not clarify how long open time will remain available after SAP

I've never worked in a union company before so I'm not very familiar with the RLA or the process but wrt to a plan B I would say this. Vote no. Go back to the table and negotiate stronger language in the contract. Include base hourly rate increases for all pilots that have a link to inflation and perhaps even a link to company profitability. Include duty rigs to improve pairing construction. Include tangible quality of life improvements wrt PBS and trading with open time.

What would be the worse that can happen? We would work under the current contract for a bit longer. We could hold our head up high knowing that we negotiated for everything we possible could. At the very least we would be able to force the company's hand.

I want to stand up and be proud of our contract. This new TA will not allow me to do that.

To me the, the TA is a step in the right direction, but I'm not voting for it. I don't have too many reasons, but PBS will offer me no enhancements to days off as I already average about 14 days off per month in base, I see that declining under PBS.

From everything I've seen so far, the language is too strongly slanted towards management being able to over-manipulate the system. That's no good, that's the problem w/ the current contract. Too many loopholes that have allowed abusive management practices. I also don't like the idea of having an official check-in process. If they wanna pay me 100k or more per year, I might reconsider. In the mean time, I'm a PIC of a part 121 aircraft...I think I can manage just fine w/out a required check in. I know my schedule, how to check it, and when to show up for the airplane. It's not rocket science, don't need the company to baby-sit me through the process. To me, the check in just reeks of future abuse.

Our pay-rates/proposed raises aren't keeping up w/ the CPI, or consumer pricing index. While I don't expect any substantial pay raise under a new contract given the current economic climate, we can do better. It was my hard work, not management's, that nearly earned this company $300,000,000 in the bank. They turned around and squandered a large portion of this in Hawaii. We also bypassed appreciable pay raises the last time around because of the whole Freedom whipsaw tactics used by management.

Personally, I won't vote yes to a contract until it ties executive compensation to the success of the company. If we're doing well financially, the pilots, along w/ management, should prosper together. When times get tough, management needs to be required, per the contract, to make the necessary cuts. Pilots have been the ones making the financial sacrifices for so many years now, it's time the CEO, CFO, etc. be required to make the same sort of sacrifices. Twenty years ago, adjusted for inflation, pilots made twice as much as they do today. Does that hold true for the upper-management types w/ regard to their salaries? I didn't think so. Patience is a virtue, I can wait for a better contract...If I'm not around to inherit that contract, hopefully some future Mesa pilots will be better off as a result of our pursuit of a better agreement. Personal gain can take a back seat, advancement of the profession is what I want.