ILS Training
02-19-2009 | 08:59 AM
#41
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From: Groundlooped and liking it
I thought that if you were cleared for the ILS you were also cleared for the LOC appch. Some people add a lost GS procedure to their breif, with time or, more accurately DME off the LOC.
02-19-2009 | 09:08 AM
#42
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You do not start the timer so you can drop down and do the localizer approach you start the timer so you know when to go missed. Has anyone done an ILS with obstacles on both sides of centerline and the missed approach procedure has a turn? If you lose everything and immediately start the missed approach procedure you could run into a building or terrain.
02-19-2009 | 09:23 AM
#43
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From: Q CA
Well, kind of. The missed approach point for an ILS is DA, not a specified DME or specified time. If you lose the slope, you are basically now doing a LOC approach, which is why you made note of the timing or DME to the MAP in the first place. Also why if you made a note to point out something along the lines of "back up to transition to LOC is..." and you're still above the loc mins you may be good to go depending on the wx at the field.
02-19-2009 | 09:41 AM
#44
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Time on an LOC approach in a medium/heavy jet is in most case completely irrelevant as a normal approach to the touchdown zone using normal maneuvers would be impossible. Better techniques involve calculating your own VDP. I would hope you start your climb before reaching the actual MAP.
In the United States, if you are clear for the ILS you are also clear to fly the LOC approach. The reason it might be confusing to some pilots is because ATC has to use the actual title of the approach plate to clear you for a particular approach. If the approach is titled ILS 12 and you want to fly the LOC 12, ATC will have to clear you for the ILS 12 approach. If the glideslope is inop, ATC still has to clear you for the ILS 12 approach but should include the comment "glideslope inop" (while not mandatory).
This made is particularly confusing to international flight crews. If you fly in Europe and you want to fly the LOC approach you will look for the LOC approach plate and not the ILS. FAA is slowly meeting ICAO standards naming more and more approach "ILS or LOC" to prevent in part this little confusion and for ATC to clear you for the correct approach.
In the United States, if you are clear for the ILS you are also clear to fly the LOC approach. The reason it might be confusing to some pilots is because ATC has to use the actual title of the approach plate to clear you for a particular approach. If the approach is titled ILS 12 and you want to fly the LOC 12, ATC will have to clear you for the ILS 12 approach. If the glideslope is inop, ATC still has to clear you for the ILS 12 approach but should include the comment "glideslope inop" (while not mandatory).
This made is particularly confusing to international flight crews. If you fly in Europe and you want to fly the LOC approach you will look for the LOC approach plate and not the ILS. FAA is slowly meeting ICAO standards naming more and more approach "ILS or LOC" to prevent in part this little confusion and for ATC to clear you for the correct approach.
02-19-2009 | 09:47 AM
#45
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Pilot Contoller Glossary:
FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.
FINAL APPROACH FIX- The fix from which the final approach (IFR) to an airport is executed and which identifies the beginning of the final approach segment. It is designated on Government charts by the Maltese Cross symbol for nonprecision approaches and the lightning bolt symbol for precision approaches; or when ATC directs a lower-than-published glideslope/path intercept altitude, it is the resultant actual point of the glideslope/path intercept.
02-19-2009 | 09:50 AM
#46
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I have to disagree to the timing. You do not fly an ILS to a time reference. Nor would starting the time at GS intercept work as this is typically prior to the LOC only FAF. If I am inside the FAF for an ILS and I lose GS, I am executing a missed approach. I was not cleared for the LOC approach. I did not brief a LOC approach. I will miss the approach, confer with ATC, and either return for the LOC only approach, an entirely different approach, or I will divert to my alternate. Of course if I were in an emergency situation, all bets are off and I might well consider a loc only approach. As for time, I call for time to start over the outer marker or FAF, not at GS intercept
02-19-2009 | 09:51 AM
#47
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02-19-2009 | 09:55 AM
#48
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From: SWA F/O
Time on an LOC approach in a medium/heavy jet is in most case completely irrelevant as a normal approach to the touchdown zone using normal maneuvers would be impossible. Better techniques involve calculating your own VDP. I would hope you start your climb before reaching the actual MAP.
In the United States, if you are clear for the ILS you are also clear to fly the LOC approach. The reason it might be confusing to some pilots is because ATC has to use the actual title of the approach plate to clear you for a particular approach. FAA is slowly meeting ICAO standards naming more and more approach "ILS or LOC" to prevent in part this little confusion and for ATC to clear you for the correct approach.
In the United States, if you are clear for the ILS you are also clear to fly the LOC approach. The reason it might be confusing to some pilots is because ATC has to use the actual title of the approach plate to clear you for a particular approach. FAA is slowly meeting ICAO standards naming more and more approach "ILS or LOC" to prevent in part this little confusion and for ATC to clear you for the correct approach.
02-19-2009 | 09:57 AM
#49
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It's actually fairly common, lots of general aviation flight schools teach the "backup approach" technique. I did it in the past too but not at the airline level. Reasons mentioned were much slower approach speeds (which gives you extra time to make a decision) and fuel savings. Again, I believe one approach at a time is the best way to do it...
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