When I had 10 duty free days per month at the airlines I didn't see them as 10 days off when I had to cross the country between home and base.

The 10 days duty free days became 5 or 6 days off at home when I subtracted out the commute.

Year 1, I would commute the day before my show time and spend the night with ear plugs in and sleep mask over my eyes (resting) in a crash pad that made europe's worst hostels look and smell like 5 star hotels.

If anyone else was there, I'd set the alarm 1/2 hour earlier to avoid the morning bathroom/shower wait. Sometimes when that wouldn't work, I would have to do the Tom Hanks 'Terminal' kitchen sink shower&shave.

Year 2 and beyond, I would commute the day before my show time and spend the night with ear plugs in and sleep mask over my eyes (resting) in a crash pad that smelled a little better.

My point: Rest - Who's Responsible?

§ 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

121.471 has joint responsibility.

Was I doing my part???

 

91 wins. The PIC is responsible.

Now if you ask if you could get fired for following 91.3 and calling off a flight because you couldn't get a good night's sleep. You sure can.

Part 121 is regulating the Airline, not the Airline Pilot. 121.471 only limits what your company can make you do. And by extension exactly what they will demand of you. It's PIC's job to ensure that the crew is really rested not the 121 definition of rest.

The company could care less however, it's your responsibility to fly ACTUALY rested (IM SAFE), not "Legaly" rested (121.471). How you manage to do that is concidered your own problem.

 

Who is responsible?

Everybody.

Count on some changes to check-in procedures.

 

The pilot (PIC or SIC) is responsible for ensuring that they meet Part 67 "fitness for flight" and it's a shared responsibility under Part 121 in terms of required rest in between duty periods.

I think the "I have to commute because I can't afford to live in domicile" argument is DOA when set against the regulations. A pilot's responsibility is clearly defined, although the definition exists in an untenable work environment for many.

Also consider that most airline pilots are not true "at will employees" because they are covered under a CBA. A pilot can quit for any reason, or no reason at all - but the reverse may not be true for the employer wanting to terminate a covered pilot. Airlines will likly exploit this and suggest "if it's so bad, why do you do it?"

When the latest pilot rest issue comes to head, it's going to be easy for airline lawyers to quote chapter and verse of the existing regs and claim them adequate (ie. no additional expense or scheduling burden). I think the focus will again shift to the pilot, and force commuting pilot's hands to wheather the glamour of an airline career is worth it.

I hope I'm wrong.

 

So on an 8 hour overnight with a 30+ minute van ride, is the company sharing any responsibility to ensure the crew members are rested?

 

First, I want to make clear I'm on the side of labor - I'm just playing devil's advocate.

To answer your question; 8 hours free from duty is the reg. so yes the company is meeting the requirements of the reg. Is it safe, you and I both know the answer to that.

So the answer is as a union, negotiate "8 hours behind the door" clause (or more) into the contract. As an individual, it's uncomfortable to stop or delay the operation if your not fit to fly - but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

 

It's the reg, but it doesn't in ANY way mean the company is actually taking it's part on responsibility.

If they were being responsible, the MEC/NC wouldn't have to negotiate a minimum time behind the door, the company would be responsible and grant it. Then the burden would solely lie with the crew member that they properly managed a reasonable amount of time behind the door.

We could go round and round about the economic impact this would have on the airlines and how we'll never see it change till more people die.

 

Bingo. I support 100% the fact that as professionals we have the responsibility on our end to make sure we maximize our rest; that being said when the company schedules an 8 hr overnight with a 45 min. van ride, you end up with 4 to 5 hours of sleep.

All studies point to two key figures:

1) 16 hours time since awake - which means that by all measured studies after 16 hours of being awake most subject's performance was significantly degraded.

2) The average subject needs 5 hours of sleep minimum to function, anything under 5 hours becomes sleep deprivation and also degrades performance.

Make of it what you will, but the fatigue factor has to be addressed from all angles, not just the pilots.

 

Don't doubt the survey one bit. I'm curious if they were to take it further, or if the information is out there. How long can the subject adequately function on that 5 hours of sleep? I doubt it's anything past 8 hours.

I know I've had the typical 5 hours of sleep, been able to function just fine on that 2ish hour flight to the hub. But as soon as I sit down on that 2-3 hour sit, it becomes a struggle for the remaining 8-9 hours of duty.

 

Dr. Tom Nesthus of the Civil Aerospace Medical Institute division of the Federal Aviation Administration testified on Wednesday (to the NTSB) that his research showed:

• less than 8 hours of sleep is “an acute sleep debt”.
• going “more than 17 hours without sleep produces a degradation in performance”.

(The quotes are his actual words, the rest is my paraphrasing. I'm a pilot, not a court reporter - I can't type quickly.)

Where do your 16 and 5 hour #'s come from? Not debating you, just looking to read more research on the issue.